The Wellbeing Hour #45 300 Knocks & Standing Strong driving opportunities for all

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Amy: This is the Headtorch podcast. Welcome. Our mission to create a mentally healthy culture at work, keeping the conversations alive. Our podcasts bring you great presenters and stimulating discussion on mental health and wellbeing in the workplace. Enjoy. Welcome everybody to this, Wellbeing Hour. Great to have you along. My name is Amy McDonald. Angus: I am Angus Robinson, and, we will be introducing our guest today, Enoch Adayemi, in a few moments. A quick note that we are recording this, so, you will be able to see it as a podcast on Spotify and all the usual channels. Please do follow us there, it does make a difference and we do appreciate it. At Headtorch we’re all about creating a healthy culture at work and the Wellbeing Hour is an important extension of our work. I’ll be back in a little while to field some of your questions and comments to our guest, Amy. Amy: Yeah. And we are very much looking forward to seeing those questions and comments that, that, that you pose. before that, I myself am going to be asking Enoch a few questions. These include questions like, when you first started looking for work in accountancy, what did you realise about applying for, for jobs? What has Black Professionals UK given, people and how can it, sort of thinking about recruitment and promotion, how can people better challenge, bias? Today’s session, folks is called 300 Knocks and Standing Strong, Driving Opportunities For All. And joining us today, I’m delighted to see is our guest, Enoch Adayemi. Enoch, I’ll be asking you shortly to share your story, but before we go into that any further, I know that you have kindly shared a question that you are posing to all of us here today. And here is the question for you folks. Does your mid and senior leadership team reflect the rest of your wider team? So please do add some of your thoughts to this question that Enoch is posing us today, do add those thoughts into the chat as he and I go into conversation and we’ll pick up on those comments and questions and thoughts around that question, a little later on together with Angus. Well let me introduce you more formally now Enoch to everybody. I first met you, I can’t even remember when it was now, but it was quite a few years ago and you were, giving a presentation, I think it was at CIPD event in Edinburgh, and I was really struck by both your story and your passion and your drive. So really delighted that you’re able to join us here today. Enoch is a fellow of the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants and a consultant specialising in the financial services industry. A passionate advocate for positive change, he is the founder of several organisations, including Black Professionals Europe, as well as Black Professionals UK, and Black Professionals Europe is one of the fastest growing networks, I believe, supporting professionals, students, and corporate partners. Through Enoch’s work in leadership, finance, diversity, equity, and inclusion and entrepreneurship, he is shaping more equitable workplaces and opening doors for the next generation. He also lends his expertise to multiple advisory boards where he champions opportunity and representation. Enoch, it is fantastic to have you with us here today, please do introduce yourself with your mystery object. Enoch: All right, my mystery object is actually not shown. Okay. Okay. I’ve got a bell, but I think you’re not going to hear my bell ringing because Zoom has got capability to eliminate noise, so my bell ringing is seen as noise. So what what do I use the bell for? So I normally wake up at five in the morning to wake up in my household. I’ve got, two young kids and then, and my wife as well. So the bell is basically I tell them not to worry about setting alarms. So I just go around the house when the time comes and just ring the bell, everyone wakes up and then they sort of start, they start their day. And in a way how that links to who I am and my personality is I’m willing to be the, to sort of, be the pace setter. I’m willing to, be the sacrificial lamb if you, if you can. So waking up earlier so they can, can enjoy their sleep, their sleep, and not worry about setting alarms or missing alarms because I guarantee to always wake everyone up, when the time comes with, with my bell. Apart from that,I grew up in Nigeria. I moved to the UK back in 2003 and I went to University of Liverpool for three years, and then I’ve been Scotland for the last 20 years. It was when crossed into 2026 that I realised that this is actually going to be my 20th year in Scotland. And a lot of people have asked why, why has my accent not changed? But I, listen, I will pick if someone can find out why. I still have, my accent has not changed in that time. But, so I’ve, I, I’ve, I’ve lived there. I’ve, built a life here and you know, Scotland has been good for, good to me as, as an individual and some work I’ve gone on to do. Hopefully I can share some of that in the coming. Amy: Yeah, wonderful. Thank you. Thank you Enoch, and it’s great to that, you have your, your native Nigerian accent so strong. My grandmother, my grandparents were German and my grandmother, held her very strong German accent, you know, to the bitter end age 99, and lived most of her life in most of her adult life in Birmingham. So, you know, she got, she got off scot-free, I think. No offence to anyone from Birmingham.Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s lovely your use of the bell there. You’re not only helping to, you know, get your family up in the morning, but I suppose a lot of your work, what what it says to me anyway is about waking, waking people’s minds up right? Getting people to really think about their approach and how inclusive they are being,in today’s very challenging world, quite frankly. Let me take you back Enoch to your childhood in Nigeria. You went to a boarding school actually there, didn’t you? What was that like? Enoch: yeah. So, boarding school in Nigeria was very tough. So when, when there’s boarding school in the UK, there’s a different notion right around privilege around all that. But in Nigeria it’s very different. So the way I, and I guess most people describe boarding school in Nigeria is it’s just one step above, above hell. Sorry, sorry for that analogy. Amy: One step. One step above hell. Did you say? Enoch: Above hell, because it’s, it’s just tough. Growing up in the, in the nineties and the early two thousands, so these were the days when, you know, it’s, it’s acceptable for teachers to, to whip the students. So, you know, I, I endured that for six years and just that and got the seniors ahead of you. So it’s not just the teachers, it’s the seniors as well, trying to get, one over you. So that was me growing up for six years. So I grew up with all the challenge all right? And what’s done for me, even though, you know, I don’t look back on it with bitterness, right? I look back on it from the point of view of, you know, what that has, that has shaped me and made me stronger and made me ready for the world or for the world ahead. Because after the boarding school, I went on to the university and then I continued on with life and the challenges I faced after that. After being in that boarding school for six years, from the age of 10, the challenges I faced in life after that seemed insignificant to what I went through as a 10-year-old, as an 11-year-old, or or 12-year-old. I mean, we all have different ways of looking at things. I like to look at things from a positive perspective. So I’m looking at it from point of view of, you know, it was tough, but it just got me ready for life. But then on the positive side, I should say, you know, you, you are probably thinking, why did your parents take you to that school? So that was, that was what was, that was normal back then. But then, that school specifically was good academically. So most kids will come out with nine A’s you know, like just all A stars. It was academically strong, but it’s just it had all the other extra challenges on the side as well. So, and again, there was a lot of discipline that came with being in that school. You know, we woke up at 4 45 in the morning every day, you know, Monday to Sunday. and there was always something to do and we’re always studying. So it built a level of discipline in me, which is now helping me as I’ve gone through life and in my adult life now. So some things that would come maybe easier for me, or some things that can be a bit more difficult for others, for me its just come easy because of the life I’ve lived and the experiences I’ve had. So, that was, that was boarding school, that was, six years of growing up fast. Amy: I think it’svery admirable that you have chosen to take the good out of what sounds like a lot of harshness, actually, a lot of severity, but actually you’ve chosen to focus, I suppose, on the good stuff, right? and gain that perspective from it.How do you think that’s then how, how’s, how’s that influenced you think that that perspective, how’s that influenced you moving, you know, into adult life? Enoch: Yeah. It was good because I learnt human behaviour in there. You know, I learned things like, you know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And then something I learned in there is nobody gives anything to you, you’ve got to go take what you want right? And what I mean by that is, so with the work we’re doing, with the work I’m now doing around Black Professionals UK, trying to change, organisations, trying to change minds and trying to change behaviours within businesses. Changes don’t just come by happenstance, you know, you’ve got to drive the change. I can sit here and think why are organisations behaving the way they’re behaving? Or why are individuals behaving the way they’re behaving? If that’s how they’ve been wired to behave, if that’s what normal is for them, that’s what behaviour is for them. So it’s really the change makers or we that want better, that need to go and drive that change, that need to go and challenge what is the norm, that needs to go have those conversations right? And, and again, that’s a bit of what I learned, you know, growing up in that boarding school around nothing comes easy, nothing comes easy at all. You’ve got to almost fight for everything. You’ve got to work for everything, you’ve got towork hard for everything. Again, we studied, we studied a lot, it was just nonstop studying. So looking at my kid now, so my kid is 10 years old and I went to that school at 10 years old. And sometimes I just think, I look at him and how tiny he is, and then I’m thinking, so I was this tiny when I went to that school, you know, it, it, it then came on to me that that was, that, that was wild. But the good thing is, is that discipline, it got into me, which, you know, is the discipline I’ve taken into life and I’m using when I’m going into businesses, having those conversations,and being very strategic about how I have those conversations because in, in the space where we are trying to change behaviour, you can be strategic about it. You know, people use different strategies. Some people use the just calling people out and name and shame strategy, but the strategy I use is how can I get to your mind? How can I get to your heart? And then how can I show you data and, and how can we start making changes from that? Amy: Yeah, if I can just jump in there. That’s really fascinating to hear how you go about doing that. How do you get into somebody’s mind? How do you get them to think, start, or encourage someone? Because we can only change ourselves, right? But how can you encourage someone or question someone so that they question themselves I suppose? Before we jump into the hugely exciting story of, Black Professionals UK, just a little bit more about you know where it all came from. You studied accountancy, didn’t you? You came to the UK, you studied accountancy, you got your degree, and then from 2006 to 2008, you were applying for jobs, weren’t you? So share a little bit about how many job applications went out, what that whole thing brought up for you. Enoch: Absolutely. So, just to put it in context, so I grew up in Nigeria in a majority black nation where I’m just one of everybody and I can go out to achieve whatever I want to achieve if I put my mind to it, that type of thing. I grew up, I grew up thinking I could be the president, so I could be the CFO of, of a multinational company because growing up, I was very ambitious I had that ambition as a young, young person. So when I came to the UK, the, the thinking did not change. I just came, you know, right. I’ll go to university, I’ll study accounting, I’ll get my accounting degree, get on a graduates programme, work my way, become a CFO. That was the dream. It was just, you know, it was laid out nice and that if I just work hard and get my degree right, everything will be fine. But then when I finished, when I was coming to the end of my degree and we started applying for graduates programme, that was when the reality started dawning on me that there’s a slight difference. I can’t go on to achieve anything else or achieve just like that because I’m in a different environment where I’m different. Alright. I’m not in Nigeria anymore where I’m just one of everybody. I’m in a place where, you know, I’m an outlier. So we started applying for graduate posts. and what I quickly found in, in that period was, my course was a very mixed course, there were English students and they were international students. And what we quickly found was a lot of the English students were going on to get all these graduate roles with PWC, Deloitte, KPMG, EY and the accounting firms, but none of the international students were getting anything. That was when I started realising that there’s an issue. And it wasn’t the case that the, the English students were smarter than us no, we’re all playing on the same playing field, but they were going on to get those opportunities. We weren’t and that was the first sort of reality check for me around, okay, there’s something happening here. But you know I continued with that from 2005, then finished my degree in 2006, continued applying, and then when I finished my degree, still there was nothing coming through. And that was when I decided to leave Liverpool, and come up to Scotland. So I came up, went to University of Stirling. I did it because the thinking was, right if I do a Master’s, that would put me in a better position and I should be able to just get a job like that. But I was very shocked very quickly the same thing happened again, and it was even more obvious this time, because in my degree,on my master’s programme, there was just one Scottish guy and everybody else was an international student. And we started the programme in September and by January, the Scottish guy already had a job lined up for September, for the end of the year. And then none of us had nothing lined up. And again the same thing is happening again and again. Amy: Sorry to, jump in there, but, was it, was it blatant racism? Enoch: I don’t want to say it’s racism. I think it was a different time. I mean, there were a lot of factors playing and I’ll, I’ll touch on that later, but I don’t want to believe people wake up in the morning saying, I’ll be racist to Enoch or to people like Enoch and I won’t give them a job, I think it was just different times. What you know is what you know, right. And what you know is how you perceive the world and how you interact in the world. So I didn’t get anything. In 2007 finished my Master took until later, 2008, before I eventually got on the, on the graduate programme. But what my years in boarding school did for me was I was used to adversity, alright? I went through six years of adversity. I went through six years of hardship. In boarding school sometimes there was not enough food, so we all had to sort of just share little food around, so I was used to that tough life. So coming into the UK and having lots of rejections because it wasn’t for lack of trying, and that’s where the subject came for this podcast 300 Knocks , and still standing. So I applied for over 300 jobs in that time, in that period. So it wasn’t for lack of or maybe you didn’t apply enough or I didn’t try enough I tried, I applied, but I got a lot of rejection Amy: You were determined. Enoch: What I thought was I just need one person to say yes because I was very sure of my ability and this is not being proud or anything. I knew the chance I’m going to do well because I knew I was good at this career I was going to go into, so I just needed someone to take a chance on me. So I just thought I’ll keep going. And a lot of people, along that way, you know, coming from the university, coming through my, my Masters programme, a lot of people dropped off because they couldn’t take the rejections anymore. The rejections are crushing alright. But thankfully for me, I had another level of resilience where once I got rejection, it’s just, right, okay, that’s off. Next, move on to the next one. And that was how I was able to get through those rejections until I got my first years, which was a graduate programme, with the finance company in Edinburgh. And from then on my career took off. I got a really good package and went on to qualify as a chartered accountant, and then my career has justhas been exciting since then. Amy: Amazing. So if it wasn’t blatant racism, what do you believe was blocking? What were the obstacles? Whatwas going on? Enoch: So since 2006. Right there’s something my dad taught me. My dad taught me to always make excuses for people. Like don’t just assume the worst of people. Try to make excuses for them. Try to rationalise why they do what they do. So back in 2006, 2007, so bringing it to Scotland, right, 2006, 2007, there were not that many black people in Scotland, right? I mean you live in Glasgow now, Amy, and I’m sure the view is very different, but back in 2006 there weren’t that many black people. So I’ll, I’ll paint you a picture. So your recruiting manager, you’re Scottish or white recruiting manager, you’re looking at a cv. The name on it is Enoch Adeyami. Already in your head, you’re thinking oof, you know, it’s different, straight away. So you’re already thinking. He’s going to sound different, it’s going to be a different culture.If we bring this person into the business, and we’re having our banter, can he get the banter? Can he get the jokes? I’m walking us through a scenario of a recruiting manager looking at a CV with a different name. So what they are worried about is if I bring Enoch into my organisation, is he going to blend in? Is he going to get the culture? Is he going to be one of the guys? Or do we have to make special arrangements for him? So from that point of view, you’re thinking, I’ve got Enoch’s cv, however, I’ve got John McKay’s CV on my left hand side. John is just going to come in, and blend in straight away. So from your thinking as a recruitment manager, you’re very more likely just go, John, because you think that’s an easy, it’s a low hanging fruit than taking a chance on Enoch, where you don’t know how he’s going to blend in when he comes into the organisation. So that’s what I think is happening. So that’s not blatant racism. I, I don’t call that blatant racism. That’s just, I guess, people not informed, unconscious bias, or people not knowing, you know, as I say, what you know is what you know. So what they know is Enoch may not blend into the culture. But the reality is coming and I’ll be fine. And again, a lot of the work I’ve gone on to do in the last few years is having conversations and telling stories. And I believe, if I have conversations with people and I tell them stories and they get to see things from my point of view, that can start changing their mindset around, oh, maybe what I thought was wrong, maybe I can bring someone like Enoch and it’s just going to be fine. And again, a lot of change has happened over the years. This was 20 years ago. So the average person living in Scotland, in the big cities now, would have had some kind of interaction with other ethnicities, other nationalities and all that. So, you know there’s a broadening of perspective around talent compared to 2006 where there’s a certain type of talent that will succeed. So that’s why I think I don’t want to call it racism, I just think it’s a different times andit’s lack of knowledge. Amy: Yeah, it’s ignorance really, isn’t it? It’s ignorance. and I suppose at that time there was possibly less of a thinking about, actually if we bring in lots of diversity into our workplace, we’re going to get huge diverse knowledge, creativity, innovation and so on right? And I suppose that speak wasn’t around in 2006. Enoch: It wasn’t, no. Amy: So let’s fast forward to you then set up, was Black Professionals, Scotland. Enoch: Yes. Edinburgh Black Professionals Amy: So tell us what made you decide, I’m going to do this, and what was the purpose of it? Enoch: Right. So as I said, I eventually go on that graduate programme in 2008 and from that point on career pathway was good. However, I had this feeling of leaving my, my comrades on the battlefield, that was always that thing. I had a lot of people I went to university with in Liverpool and a lot of people I went to university with in Stirlling, a lot of them didn’t have the opportunity I got. So I’ll give you an example. You know, one of my best friends still today, he studied engineering, very smart guy, very brilliant. He studied electrical engineering and up until that period he’d not gotten any opportunity to work in his field. So what happened was he ended up taking a security job almost you know those bar security. This is a graduate with so much knowledge, so much intelligence. But, and there’s nothing wrong with working as a security guard from a, from a nation’s point of view and from a talent point of view, if he can put someone to better use from an economic point of view, it’s better for him to work as an engineer. So a lot of people I went to university with were beginning to settle into lower skilled roles, and they’re beginning to accept that as this is what life is for me. So actually in 2016, 8 years later, the idea came to start what was then Edinburgh Black Professionals. So when I said earlier when you said, was it racism? And I said well there’s a lot of factors at play. One of the challenges for me back in 2006 as well was when I came to the UK I came by myself. I didn’t have any family or any network around me. So when I went into the job market, I probably wasn’t presenting myself as strong as I could if I had someone guiding me. So there was no uncle to look at my cv, there was no auntie, there was no one saying, no, go speak to that person, they can give you one week experience. I didn’t have anything. There was no network, essentially, so that was what I wanted to create in 2010. Create a network for people like me where you can get support. Someone can look at cv, someone can give you guidance, someone can give you advice, and culturally relevant guidance. because you could ask me what’s the point in creating that people can just go get guidance from job centre. But the guidance they’ll give me, not be relevant to maybe someone like me because,they won’t know the challenges I face, but I know the challenges other black people face so I can give them culturally relevant guidance and support. So that was what prompted us back then in 2016 to start Edinburgh Black Professionals and, you know, it’s just been an exciting journey since then. Amy: And as you say, it’s around that kind of coaching support to enable people to be successfulout there in the job market, right? And tell us a bit about culturally what was different for you. What would be seen as acceptable and respectable. back in Nigeria so that’s what you were like adopting here that wasn’t quite Enoch: there’s a Amy: in the same way. So tell us a little bit about Enoch: of respect when speaking to someone in authority, say manager or a recruiting manager, is you don’t look them dead on in the eyes. You know, you don’t, you don’t, there’s no eye contact. eye contact. That’s how it’s done in Nigeria. So you take that same culture. For me, for example, I brought that culture to the UK and then I was going to interviews, I was looking away from recruiting managers. So for them, this guy is shy, this guy is not confident, this guy is probably not good. He’s probably not as good as he’s painting himself to be. So no we’re not giving him the job. So it’s those little cultural nuances that maybe the job center can’t help you with because they don’t even know you have that problem. But I can, because I’ve had a problem before. So that’s, that was why I saw the need create that, that network where that understand the problem can help those. And we that understand the problem and we’ve been through it, we can help those that are currently having that problem or that will. So that, that, that was the thinking behind it. it Amy: Great, so real kind of practical advice, isn’t it? So tell us how somebody’s been supported then Enoch: Absolutely. So there, there was a.what with, businesses. So we work with about businesses. that we call partners.And parts of that, part of that relationship, advertise open vacancies on our website, black professionals So there was a time I was just trawling through, through the site and I saw a for an and And, and I know that was currently looking for a role at that time. I think I spoke to her a few days ago, so she was fresh in my mind. So when I saw that role, I saw the,the pay. I thought, right, good for her. However, when I took the link and I shared it with her, she saw the link, she saw the role, and then she saw the pay and she thought, oh no. There’s no way can get this role because there’s a lot of jargons in job specs, but because of my experience , I’ve looked behind the jargon. that she can actually do the role, but when she looked at the jargon, she thought she couldn’t, yeah, yeah, just breaking it down to simple knew she could do it. She thought she couldn’t. Also as well, they were paying quite significant. I mean, it was quite significant. So she was thinking, nobody going to pay her that amount of money because it was significant. but then I thought, yeah, of course, you got the skills, you’ve got the experience, albeit your experience is from outside the UK. So what we then did was we supported her through the whole application process. we helped her with her cv, put her CV, in, she was invited interview. We then did interview prep for her, and then, after the interview prep, she went for She did,they liked her and offer her the job. But the, the, the, the job was paying a salary bracket. So these, an example, actually, I’ll just, I’ll just say how much it was. It was paying between £60k to £75k. So they offered job at £60k. So again, we’re able to give a guidance around, no, you know, don’t accept that offer. Push, try and Push, and try and get yourself in around£70k because if you go in at £60k, it’s going to take you a few years to get to £70k, right? So we guided that on that journey until she eventually landed that role around £70k. That would not have been possible without the work we do. And that example I’ve given you is one of, you know, numerous examples of how we support members CV review, interview prep, careers guidance. example, when she then having problems along the way, maybe she was having challenges with colleagues or or, or things like that, she can come to us and we guidance as well and support around how to navigate all that. So that’s the support we give. We give you that guidance and support, on your career journey have to do that alone by yourself, because that was what I went through when I started my career that’s what we are trying to avoid for, other folks. Amy: Yeah. Wow. Amazing. You really get a sense of that perseverance and that persistence that you had to go through as a child, if you like. And then through your adult career, and your academic time when you were studying and how much you’ve kept that persistence up for others. What a brilliant story and I know there are lots and lots of other storiesthat you could share that are really, really similar. So it’s about that building of confidence, isn’t it? and belief, and some pretty simple skills to enable people to shine,you know, and share their talents, which can only be good for everyone and every organisation. I’m just going to pause there and ask,Angus to join us. I know people have been putting some, stuff in the chat. Just a reminder folks, this is Enoch’s question. Does your Mid and Senior Leadership Team reflect the rest of your wider team. So angus, what, what have folks been sharing in the chat? Angus: A comment from Sarah McCann. So thank you for joining us, Sarah. And she’s saying on a personal level, it’s about 50%, but on a professional level, there’s minimal consistency with the wider team. It’s very siloed. So what would you say to that Enoch? Enoch: Thanks for that and thanks for thanks to the person that shared that. That’s generally what we see when we speak to businesses and organisations. There’s no reflection between the general population of their talents and the leadership team. The leadership team is usually skewedtowards certain gender and, and sometimes towards a certain ethnicity. And then you start asking yourself,why are we not seeing that feed through from the team, the representation of the team? Why are seeing that feed through all the way to mid, senior and the top team? And that’s some of the conversations we have with some of our partners in trying to understand where is the challenge, what is the challenge and is this something that can be fixed or is this something that just has to be accepted? So those are kind of conversations we have on a daily basis at at BPU. Angus: And is it something that can be fixed? fixed Enoch: So it depends. What I always say is, listen, in 2020, the world went virtual. Before COVID, if you told the leadership team across the world that can you work virtually, they would say no. Right? But in 2020 they made it happen because there was a will and I believe in the power of will. So if there’s a will, there’s a way. So if leadership, and that’s why when we work with businesses, I always start with how much of leadership interest is in this? Becauseyou can speak to HR people and DEI, people that want to drive change, but if there’s no senior leadership buy in, we’re just wasting our time, we’re just having a nice conversation. We’re never going to make any change. So the places where we’ve seen some really good changes is where the folks at the top are excellent, they’ve got ambitions and they’re willing to put numbers behind those ambitions. And then they’re willing to say, you know what? Give us guidance, tell us what we need to do, and we’re willing to make those changes, albeit within, practical parameters. So, yeah, definitely possible. But it’s only possible when there’s leadership buy-in. Angus: We always say that about wellbeing and mental health. It’s, absolutely possible to make this a priority and the, amazing changes that happens as a result of it, but it needs that senior leadership buy-in. Amy: Julie Stevenson, thank you. You’ve left a note here in the chat and it sort of ties in really, I suppose with what you’ve been saying. You know, the more senior, the leadership, the less they appear to care about the service and staff below them. The wider team are actually more conscious regarding the company’s values and ensuring quality of work. What do you think to that Enoch? Do you want to add anything to that? Enoch: Yeah, it’s again, using my dad’s thinking of making excuses for people. So you think of those at the top senior leadership role. They’ve got one goal, and that goal is to make profits. Let’s focus on why does a business exists? A business exists to make profits, right? So if you think of the senior leadership team, they’ve got very limited goal, eight hours, nine hours in a day. If there’s a way they can make that profits without touching wellbeing or diversity or all that, unfortunately they will, because the main reason why the board chose the CFO or the CEO or the COO is make us profits, and that’s where the challenge is. So I don’t think it’s because they’re disconnected or they don’t care. It’s because they’ve got challenges and that challenge is I need to make profit. So it’s for organisations like ours, you know, to, start doing their work. And then there are some leadership teams that despite trying to make profits, they will also include wellbeing, and looking at the team to see, are we diverse enough? Are we representative? And all that. So some leadership teams will, take that on board and as part of their metrics. But for those that don’t, unfortunately, then it’s for organisations like us to potentially go in and make them think that way. Because sometimes it’s not the case that people are bad, it’s just because never thought about something. So if you put it on their radar and you get them thinking they can then go away, think about it for 6 months. That’s actually, I like what Enoch said, that makes sense. I’ve never thought about that before, but now that I know, these are some changes I can make. And that’s where things like reverse mentoring and some of these new initiatives that have come up in the last few years, that’s where they are really good because then you can walk in my shoes, I can take you into my world. Take me into your world. There’s a phrase I like to use, which is, Proximity breeds empathy. So if I’m close enough to you, so if you look at the Ukraine situation, for example. When the Ukraine situation happened with Russia, folks in the UK were very empathetic towards Ukraine. I’m not trying to cause divide But There are conflict in Asia, there are conflict in Africa, but folks in Scotland are not very empathetic to that. But they’re very empathetic to what was happening in Ukraine because Ukrainians are close to Scots. They’re white. So that’s where proximity breeds empathy. And I feel like I know you. If I feel like you are my kind, I can feel your pain more. And that’s why conversations are powerful because true conversations, I can get you closer to my world, I can get you closer to my pain, and then you can feel more empathy. You can feel more to try and make the changes you can to make life better for people like me. I don’t know if that makes sense, Amy what I’m saying. Amy: I like that, proximity breeds empathy. I think certainly what you’re saying Julie, sometimes that is the case , from my perspective, sometimes that is the case that senior team is distant from the values, but not always, and I think that it’s when senior leaders get that actually to get that profit that you were talking about Enoch. The only way they’re going to get there is with high performing teams. The only way they’re going to get there is with all that talent and knowledge and that huge range of skills, and people and attitudes. All of that is what creates that high performing team isn’t it? So it’s it’s about understanding that you don’t get one without the other. Enoch: So again, I’ve had lots of conversations with leaders and so we’ve had a lot of debates and a lot of conversations and, you know, some of the points they’ve made is in the sixties, seventies and eighties and even down to the nineties, businesses were making profits and there was none of these wellness and DEI and all these things happening, right? So that’s their argument, right? And it’s a fair argument, if you look on surface, okay? Yeah, I agree. I get it. But then my counter argument is the world has changed, the world of business has changed. So the world of business in Scotland, or in the UK in the sixties or seventies, is not the world of business today in 2026. So we need to take that into perspective to say those that were making those profits in 1960s and 1970s, their needs and who they are is very different to the needs of your colleagues into 2026 who may need more support, who may need more empathy from you, and that’s where the conversations really get interesting and, and genuinely, that’s part of what I enjoy. I enjoy sitting with these, like some of these people are really clever, sitting with them, understanding how they think, and trying to then get them to understand what we are trying to say and then seeing if there’s something we can do somewhere between all those conversations. And my thinking again is, I don’t think anyone born to be bad. I could be wrong. So I don’t think anyone was born to be racist or was born to be misogynistic or any of these words we use. I think the society just shapes people. The society you grew up in, shapes who you are, the conversations you have, what your media feeds you, all these things shape who you are. So it’s for us, people like us at BPU, people like Headtorch to now start, how can we change the conversation? How can we change what people think? How can we change what we see as the norm? And that’s where I see the power of conversations with obviously senior people and even just general and public. Amy: It’s that Meeting of different thoughts, allowing different thoughts,and really listening to understand. Isn’t it? Lovely. Thank you very much Enoch. So Enoch,talk us through your top tips. So we’ve got audit, your current leadership demographics. Tell us a little bit about that Enoch: The top tip is just again, look at the numbers.Look at your leadership team, and then look at the demographics across the business and ask yourself, is it representative? And then ask yourself, if it’s not representative, is there something we can do about it? Do we want to do something about it? On that question, scale on until you get to that point of, yep, we don’t like it. We want to do something about it. This is what we’re going to do about it, or this is where we’ll get help to do something about it. So again, just asking those questions. Amy: We talk about going to the balcony and, and looking at it like, what’s, what does it actually look like? Where are we at? Rather than just continuing without any thought, right? So it’s constantly questioning ourselves, isn’t it? Set clear, measurable diversity goals. Tell us a little bit about that. Enoch: So I’m a numbers guy, so numbers don’t lie. I like looking at numbers. So you can set goals just as we do in accounting from August all the way to December. We’re setting budgets, we’re setting forecast for the next year. And what then happens is when we get to the new year, because we’ve got a target that we want to make 10 pounds income. The whole business does everything to make 10 pounds income. And it is the same thing with that. If you set a target for a goal of this is where we want to be as an organisation with regards to talent, then the whole organisation is geared towards getting that. that’s why a target is good. It doesn’t mean you get there, it doesn’t mean we get 10 pounds income, we could get 9.5, but at least we try as much possible to get there. Amy: Create transparent pathways to leadership. Enoch: This is the murky waters, right? With businesses. A lot of businesses have got these leadership pathways and these fast track pathways. And if you look at the way the system works, it’s not clear, it’s not fair. Sometimes it’s who you know, is how you getsome of these pathways rather than how good you are. But the problem with people like me or other minorities is, we don’t know anyone or nobody knows us to the point where they’re putting us into this programme. So who gets put into this programme? It’s the same people. It’s the leadership, picking people like them into the programme, and then it’s just perpetuating the same problem over and over again. Amy: Invest in leadership development for underrepresented talent. Enoch: that thing around, you know, equity and equality, equality, equity. So what I need as a black, what, my, my white counterpart needs. It could be the case that I need more support around cultural nuance or things like that, or leadership skills. So it’s just intentionally taking a bunch of cash and saying, we’re going to put a bit more away to support this group to give them a better of getting into those pathways for leadership. So being intentional. Amy: Yeah. Yeah. So that questionaround recruitment and promotion, then how do we challenge bias? Enoch: It’s again if you look at the numbers, it will tell you. So if you look at your end to end recruitment process, right? If applications coming through, let’s say hundred applications and maybe out of the hundred 20 is from Black and Asian and folks, and then you get to the interview points, maybe 10 of them get to that point and then get to the whatever. You can see where the different groups are dropping off in your recruitment process. You can look at that data and then you can start asking yourself what is happening at that point that’s making this group drop off? What’s happening at this point that’s making women drop off? What is happening at this drop point that is making older people drop off? Once you understand that, you can then go find what the problem is and then it could be biased, just a poor system and you can try and fix it. Amy: So it’s analysing it really, isn’t it? It’s analysing your process as much as possible to eradicate that biasand engage employee resource groups in strategy. Enoch: Absolutely. So a, a lot of businesses, a lot of big companies now have resource group for different ethnicities, different gender, different sexuality. So when leadership are coming up with these,so high on my strategy around where they want to get to. For example, the example I gave around setting measurable goals. If you’re setting measurable goals for maybe ethnic minority, get your ethnic minority network involved in that instead of just setting a goal, because then feel like they’re part of it and they can even support your ambitions as well to get there. Instead of just saying, right, we’ve set this goal, this is the goal. Amy: yeah, getting, it’s garnering that support from across the organisation, isn’t it? Enoch I’m going to ask you, rapid fire questions. So quick question, quick answer. Then I’m going to hand over to Angus. What does vulnerability mean to you? Enoch: For me vulnerability is just accepting that I don’t know everything. Amy: Tell us what message would you give your younger self Enoch: Everything will be fine. Amy: And what message would your younger self give you now? Enoch: Don’t forget who you are. Amy: Oh, beautiful. That was lovely. Thank you so much Enoch I’m going to hand over to Angus for the more formal thanks if you Enoch: You’re welcome. Amy: much. Angus: Enoch, that was fantastic. Very inspirational and how you keep going with all this adversity, with all the rejection is quite amazing. I love your story, I love your determination, your humility. The fact that you take the good out of adversity, it’s a real inspiration. I’m taking away some things from this. So how can I get in your mind? How can I get in your heart? And also proximity breeds empathy. So thank you Enoch it has been an absolute pleasure and an honour to have you here today and a great, great, great story. And we wish you and Black Professionals UK all the very best. There’s some great comments there, somebody saying, I wish you could start a movement for everybody. Yeah. There is an opportunity. Enoch is organising an athletics meeting on the 28th of March at Bowness Stadium, so we will get the details of that and publish that. So if anybody would like to come along and support that, that’s an opportunity to meet Enoch in person as well. So thank you very much, Enoch. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. The next Wellbeing Hour will be in May and we will publish details of that closer to the time, so keep your eyes out for that. We have a few dates for your diary, actually quite a few dates for your diary. 4th of February we are doing a taster session on Leading with a Wellbeing Lens, Creating a Healthy Culture. And that is going to be hosted by Scottish Engineering at their offices in West George Street in Glasgow. There’s also we are down at Oxfordshire, at the UK Health Security Agency at their training center in Harwell. So if anybody is near Harwell and want to come along to that again, give us a shout. And then 27th of February we have the 12 by 12 Power Hour. That is with Prosperity Wealth, and again the sign up there is with Event Brite. In 18th of March we’re doing a webinar with the Society of Medicine. Again, looking at this Wellbeing Lens that we are talking about, and then 26th March we are doing a taster session with IOSH in Glasgow. So if you want to know about any of these, my email address is here or drop your details in the chat,drop us a note and tell us you’re interested and we will send the details out to you. There’s also a QR code there if you want a consultation. It’d be great to hear what you are doing in any of the topics that we are discussing here and Leading with the Wellbeing Mind. It is always an absolute pleasure and always an absolute honour to do the Wellbeing Hour and to have everybody come along and share their thoughts. So thank you everybody. It’s been great to see you here today, and we hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you. Amy: Thank you. I’m really enjoying the comments the chat. Patricia Hamilton here has written amazing insight, thank you for sharing. I’ll be sharing the learnings with our HR team. So brilliant. And Stuart, good to see you Stuart. Thank you for an inspiring hour Enoch, incredibly valuable insights, so thank you everybody, and thank you Enoch. Enoch: Thank you very much, Amy Angus: Thank you. Amy: Thanks for listening to the Wellbeing Hour. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. These events take place regularly. So do join us for more. And if your organization would like to develop a mentally healthy culture, we’d be happy to work with your senior team, people, managers, and frontline staff. Please get in touch at Headtorch.org We look forward to hearing from you.