The Wellbeing Hour #39 Be Courageous, Discover Your Identity

Text transcript

Andrew Rodgers Wellbeing Hour Transcript

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Amy: Welcome everybody to the Headtorch Wellbeing Hour with me, Amy McDonald.

Angus: and me, Angus Robinson. We’ll introduce our guest, Andrew Rogers, in a few moments. Heads up that we are recording this, and you’ll be able to listen back to it, and listen to it as a podcast on all the usual channels. Please do follow us on them, it does make a difference, and we do appreciate it.

At Headtorch, we work with organisations to create a mentally healthy culture. The Wellbeing Hour is an important extension of our work. I’ll be back a little later to field some of your questions to our guest, Amy.

Amy: Thank you. And we look forward to your thoughts and your questions from those of you who are joining us live today. Before then, I’m going to be asking Andrew a few of my own questions, and these include the questions such as, how did you end up in a monastery in the States? How did your courage help you discover your identity?

And how do you help senior leaders to create a new, more effective mindset? today’s session is called “Be courageous, discover your identity”, and joining us for this conversation, as we said, we are delighted that Andrew Rogers, the principal in the leadership advisory practice within Odgers Berndtson is joining us live today.

He’s a consultant and executive team coach. Andrew, we’ll shortly hear from you and all about your story, but before we go into the details, I’d just like to share your question for everybody joining us live today. I hope you can see that there. Who are you as a leader is Andrew’s question for us. Who are you as a leader?

What’s the unique gift you bring and how much of that gift are you deploying? It’s really a bit of a cheat question, Andrew, I have to say, because that is three questions in one, but we liked it so much we’ve kept it. So if you are joining us live you’ll find that question in the chat, so please do offer up your responses, your questions to his questions, anything in there, and Angus and I will be looking at those together with Andrew a little later on in this session. Andrew, let me now introduce you more formally. As I’ve said already, you are the principal in the leadership advisory practice within Odgers Berndtson. How did we meet? we first met Andrew many years ago now, actually at a Minds at Work event in London, at which Andrew was speaking and he made such an impact that we had to make a connection.

And since then we have interviewed him as part of some research and also you very kindly spoke at the last face-to-face conference we had before covid, in fact. And since then, we’ve continued, to develop our working relationship and work together and support each other as much as we can.

Andrew worked at HSBC for 19 years, taking on a number of roles within the insurance business, including a startup in the in Egypt amidst the revolution there. He moved to Dubai, where he oversaw the Middle East insurance business covering seven markets. He took up then a global account management of, strategic insurance relationships, based here in the UK, and ultimately he became the Global Director of Sustainability and Wellbeing at the Bank. Now an accredited executive coach, he’s developed the Metamind Mindset Renewal Approach for executives and teams, and I’m sure you’ll share some of those insights Metamind Mindset Model Approach with us a little later on.

We are delighted that you are here today with us, Andrew, so please do share with us a little bit more of you with your mystery object.

Andrew: thank you, Amy, for that very, very kind introduction, and thanks, Angus, for welcoming me as well. my mystery object, actually, is somewhat mysterious, because it’s been missing, for a number of years, and as I was thinking about, what my mystery object might be, it mysteriously showed up again this week, and so I was really happy about that, and you’ll see why in a minute. The object is actually, I’m now wearing it and something I used to wear frequently, but as I say, I lost it and I thought it had gone. In fact, I thought I lost it in Scotland. So this is a little cross that my mum gave me when I was 21.

And so it’s very special to me because it was given to me by my mum and I wore it for many years, but then as I say, I lost it. I haven’t seen this thing for about 10 years, but it showed up, this weekend. And, yeah, it’s special to me because it reminds me of family. Reminds me, obviously, of my mum, who’s passed away.

It reminds me of my faith, which is important to me. And, yeah, sometimes it’s good for a man to have a bit of jewellery as well. So.

Amy: excellent. that’s quite interesting, isn’t it? Because we’re talking about finding our identity and what part of that identity has come through for you in re-finding that pendant?

Andrew: I remember the occasion actually. So I was visiting my mum in Nelson, New Zealand. So I should say my accent is that’s where it’s from. much as I like Australians, I’m not Australian, I’m a New Zealander, and, yeah, it just brought back great memories. I was visiting her,

she took me out for a haircut. I think we went and got some coffee and she bought me a jumper and that necklace, and that was some years ago now, shall we say.

Amy: Yeah, lovely. Excellent. as Andrew and I dive into more questions, please do remember to put your thoughts and ideas into the chat in response to Andrew’s question for us and any other thoughts that come up along the way. Andrew, you were going to be a professional trumpeter, and then you worked with young people.

What was the focus of your work? What took you away? let’s start with trumpeting. What took you away from trumpeting?

Andrew: So that was what took me away was basically a pretty, pretty serious accident. So I was finishing my first year of university doing a music degree and I was run over, so it was quite a serious accident. I sustained a very significant head injury and I was told I’d never walk again and all these sorts of things.

That was actually a misdiagnosis in terms of not walking again, but nevertheless, that did have, excuse the pun, a very big impact on my life. And I resumed my studies in music, but I decided during that period of kind of recovery and entering back into musical study that I didn’t think that’s what I wanted to do for the rest of my life in terms of being a trumpet player.

And we’ve all had those moments where we make big decisions as young people. That was a big decision for me, and I stepped away from that, not sure what I was going to do. And found myself, being invited to work with another, another young guy and get involved in youth work.

Amy: Wow. quite a rocky start, really, in terms of would it be music? What, that, that change in career there. So you shifted

Andrew: Yeah.

Amy: to working with young people. So what was the focus of that work? And what did you learn from it?

Andrew: it’s interesting being young and doing youth work as I was back then, and so there’s something about, really standing in front of your peers and, acknowledging some of the challenges and tensions that may be happening in their life. And also quite frankly, the fact that most of them didn’t want to be there,

so you weren’t getting lots of great affirmation coming back when we’re working with high school students or going into different parishes or whatnot. But being able to push through that and just help people really connect with who they are, what’s important to them, and what it is as young people that, that they might have to contribute, and we found ourselves dealing with all sorts of different circumstances and different people, so I think, for me, as I look back 30 something years and now find myself doing similar work but in a very different context, it was really a preparation, I think, for learning how to engage with people in some challenging circumstances and environments.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. and in a sense, it sounds like also you’re you were on your own sort of journey of discovery, if you like, to discover who you were in that process.

Andrew: yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it was a very steep learning curve. I loved learning. being able to, help, whether it was a classroom, because we did a lot of work in secondary schools, or whether it was, a, some sort of other group that we were interacting with. When you had those moments of kind of breakthrough, or aha, working with a group of people, or individually, It’s actually just very rewarding and very inspiring.

And so I think what that did mostly is just whet my appetite for, my own, how do I do more of this fulfilling work in my own life as I go about, navigating my path? I didn’t know, I had no idea then living in New Zealand, doing that type of work that I would have a 20 year banking career, working with a big international organization.

No idea at all. but I do think that was great preparation for that type of work, enabled me to go about that work, I think, with a level of humanity and authenticity that was a little bit unusual in quite a competitive environment.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Before we get to your working with the bank, how did you end up in a monastery, Andrew, in the States? Tell us.

Andrew: Sure thing. I’ve realized that’s quite an unusual story. When I was in my banking career or bank assurance, I met a lot of people with all sorts of interesting stories, I never came across anyone else who had been a monk. I met some people who went the other way, but none that had been a monk and then come into banking.

It basically came about through the youth work I was doing. I was involved in youth work that, I was working for the Catholic Church was my, the Bishop of Christchurch was my employer. And, and just through networking and finding out what’s happening and all sorts of different things that are happening, across, the world at that point in time, connected with, this monastic order who had a focus on young people and youth work.

And they also were offering some study and, I thought, this looks really fun. So I connected with them and, long story short is they invited me to come and join their training program. So I flew to Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I spent just short of two years as a trainee monk living the monastic life.

Amy: Wow. And what were some of your top learnings from that experience?

Andrew: I think the first thing was, it’s actually just very humbling because I left New Zealand, as a young person, but I was operating in circles where I was very popular and I was known and the work I was doing was fun and fulfilling and, in my little world, I suppose I was a little bit famous.

And so wherever I went, people knew who we were. And, we had some success at what we were doing and we’re generating a lot of fun. yeah. And I arrived in America, the Midwest, and I was no one. And there was really no opportunity for me to become anyone or to be anyone. I was there to be in a quiet environment and to study and to work the land.

Amy: And so that was the first piece. It was just like, Oh, okay. So that’s a great way to discover who you are and what’s important to you when you’re really not important to anyone else, Yeah. So what do you think you did discover about yourself there?

Andrew: I think it’s more that I found a quietness and I found, strength in, in a good rhythm of life and in simplicity and actually learning to find fulfilment not through others or even through I’m not going to say that it was necessarily work that was appreciated by, a lot of people. But just, learning that sense of fulfilment because of, who I was and what I was doing.

It sounds a little bit selfish because I was going to say what I was doing for me. But I think principally, we have to be able to manage ourselves and look after ourselves to a degree before we’re able to offer, value to other people, that could be an interesting conversation about, what level do you need to be at before you can give to others?

Because actually, we don’t want to wait till we’re perfect, because that’s not going to happen. And I think there’s something about being authentic, and also being vulnerable, and being on a journey and being able to be open. But equally, If I’m looking to, lead people, then I need to have some sense of being able to lead myself well and what it is that I’m leading from.

Amy: Wonderful. Yeah. I think that quiet time to know yourself is really vital, isn’t it?

Andrew: Yeah.

Amy: Wonderful.

Andrew: I’ll tell you something else, Amy, just on the side. So I’ve been keen on a gal, shall we say, for a number of years, partly why I went into the monastery because she wasn’t keen on me. But interestingly, when I came out of the monastery, we reconnected and she saw me in a very different light. So she could see that I had that, inner strength and peace and healthy outlook.

And so that was, that was, I got rewarded, quite quickly, you could say, because we did get married and, 26 years on and four children later, that’s still going well for us.

Amy: That’s brilliant. Congratulations. And that was a big reason why you didn’t remain in the monastery.

Andrew: That’s right.

Amy: Yeah. so you joined HSBC, as we, we know you were with the bank for 19 years and your job took you to Egypt. So what were you doing in Egypt?

Andrew: I went to Egypt. I was invited to, go and start an insurance company for the bank.

So I’d been doing a job, in the head office running a product line. Went out there and launched an insurance business in, this was in 2009. So moved the family to Cairo and we lived there for three years.

Amy: Tell us about what happened when you were out there in Egypt during the Arab Spring.

Andrew: Yeah, we obviously didn’t know we were going during the Arab Spring. The phrase didn’t exist prior to us going there, but after being there for about 18 months or so, of course, the Egyptian revolution and the Arab Spring kicked off. And very quickly, it became a very hostile and very dangerous situation.

So we lived in a building, we didn’t live in a compound. We lived in the middle of the city. We lived in an area called Mahdi, for those who know Cairo. And, it very quickly became quite dangerous. So we had to leave our ground floor apartment, which had a big glass front to it, and we moved to the upper floor, to the fourth floor.

All of the families on the lower floors were all Expats in this building moved to the upper floor and barricaded ourselves in because what was happening outside was, was very chaotic. People may remember the news, from those times, but there was basically anarchy on the streets. The prisons had been opened.

There were 70, 000 prisoners on the streets and basically the place went crazy. Things were being set fire to, there was lots of bloodshed and, it was extremely dangerous and very frightening.

Amy: Yeah, it sounds like a terrifying experience. How did you get through that?

Andrew: I This became a catalytic moment in my life. It took some years for me to realize that, but there was a moment actually for us. It was about 2 a. m. We were barricaded in this room, myself and my wife and four children and the other families in their rooms and on the street immediately outside there was a mob. And there was some bloodshed happening right there and it was fairly awful and scary and I remember sitting on the floor and my children were at complete peace.

Interestingly, this is a really interesting leadership point. Let me just jump on it because my wife and I have to really thank my wife for this, in particular, but we just, created an environment of calm. And so what’s really interesting is in the midst of really great danger, my children actually felt completely safe, and we’ve talked about it many times since and they didn’t sense any of the real danger or fear that was around them.

And that was because as the leaders in that situation, we were able to justbe a calming presence, but interiorly I was actually terrified. I was sitting on the floor, texting my father and asking for him, to please help me in any way he could. In fact, I said, Dad, please pray for me right now.

And the mobile phone network wasn’t working, of course, so it was futile. The internet was down, all communication was off, and we were really just stranded there. And my fear was that if this mob had broken into our building, which they were trying to do, then I didn’t think I had the courage to go out and confront them and effectively give my life for my family.

And so I decided at that point in time that I was a coward. Anyway, look, shortening the story is they never broke into our building, we did stay in that situation for four or five days and then we escaped to Dubai. That’s a different story for another time, but the, the interesting thing is the decision that I made in that very sort  of I think that that sort of concentrated moment of fear, actually had an impact on my career and how I was able to, to manage both myself and also how I showed up as an executive, in the years that followed.

And I was able to go back and visit that and, rethink that. but yeah, it was, it had a tremendous impact.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like a horrific experience for all of you, but an incredible way that you supported your children through that whole experience. And, thank, thankfully you all got out, as you said, you went to Dubai. It was some years later, wasn’t it, that you realised that there was a change in your health as a knock on effect from what happened there in, in Egypt. Who, helped you to recognize that you needed some help?

Andrew: Well, I had a line manager actually, which is an interesting story because it was a time of work, so I was back in London now, I was running a global product line and, had a, serious job to do. And there were just a few cracks, that were obvious in my performance and I was trying my best to hide them,

and just to move forward and to deliver and do what I needed to do. I did have a little bit of a technique there, which was taking action, just taking action. And I’ll just share where that came from. If we just flick back quickly to that second night of the revolution for us, when it started to get dark again and we feared the mobs coming back. Actually, the other expats in the building, we rallied together and we decided that night we would go out the front and stand out the front of our building.

And we were all feeling very afraid actually. but at the time that we went out and I was armed with a golf club, That was my weapon against people that had guns and machetes and whatnot but nevertheless, about five of us, dads, we, we went down the stairs, the building went out onto the road.

And as soon as we stepped onto the road, all of the fear left me and I felt completely confident. And, I thought, Oh, this is good. I’m taking action. I’m going to be okay. And what I had learned from that is when I was in different pressurized situations at work, sitting in a regional executive committee with my business under question, or all sorts of other scenarios we can imagine working in the business world, my go to is I’m going to take action.

What action can I take here? And I’m just going to, I’m going to learn how to be courageous. But the truth was there were some things that just I needed to kind of reset and they needed to be dealt with. And I had a particular line manager who was really A type personality, and he just wouldn’t let me go.

And anyway, that, thankfully to this gentleman we had a conversation. I found the bravery to say, listen, I’m actually really struggling and I shared my story and he said, I think you need to probably have some time off. And so the bank was amazingly supportive and gracious.

They gave me, I think I had three months stress leave and I was able to get some help during that time and, just make peace with the past, so to speak.

Amy: Wow. So what was it that this person, this manager, what did he do? What did he notice and bring to the fore that other people hadn’t done up until that point.

Andrew: I think probably partly it was, I didn’t actually know that that he cared and he was going to be caring because of his leadership style, but I got to a point where You know, I, I just had thought, well, it’s either I have to, either I leave or I’m going to get fired, or I just talk about what’s actually going on inside my head right now and what I’m afraid of.

So I don’t know necessarily that he noticed any unusual behaviour, except that for someone of my level and of my reputation, because I had a good reputation in the organization, I delivered a number of projects and they’d all gone very well, but my current work and my previous assignment, the regional organization, Headroll,

there’d just been a couple of things that were like, weren’t quite on. You know, just dropping some things here and there, which were uncharacteristic. So I suppose he’s thinking for someone of your calibre and character, why is this happening? And so I would say, as for those of us, here on the call in those leadership positions, that, probably we can see when we’ve got members on the team or members in the business, where things just might be slightly off for that person, or for

the level of that person, if you see what I mean.

Amy: Yeah, definitely. it’s one of our big messages continually that the absolute necessity to have that sense of curiosity rather than jumping on a change in performance levels, for example. It’s about questioning, isn’t it? Wondering, if you know that individual well, and you know that they’re a great employee and a talented member of staff.

It’s about retaining that sense of curiosity, isn’t when things change.

yeah. Wow. Great. so when you found help, what did, what was it you realised then about yourself when you did seek that help?

Andrew: I suppose that the moment I came to, was actually resetting. So this is about mindset, and this is where actually my mindset work really grew out of this. So it started very much as a personal journey, but I reviewed with some professional help what actually happened, in the revolution for us, and for me and how I

managed that situation and how I protected my family and how actually that fear was very natural and even deciding that I’m too afraid to go and do this, it was probably a very natural fear. And the reality is I didn’t actually have to do that. And probably what I needed to do was recognize the good management, the safety, the coming together, the naturalness of the fear, if you like, and that actually, rather than looking back and saying, oh my gosh, I’m a coward, is looking back and saying, well, I managed that really well, and thankfully, I never had to go into that situation. But actually, if it had to come to that, I really don’t know what I would have done, because I think, those moments in life, we don’t know, and we hope that we never know, to be honest, so I was able to reset that and, and, you know, it didn’t happen overnight,

it was a process, but part of that process was for me realizing that, this narrative that I had and all this mindset that I’d created about, what I was like as a leader and, not being able to lead under extreme pressure or tension and therefore retreating or pulling away.

I I had to reestablish, what do I know about myself? What is the leader that I want to be look like? What do I know about myself to be true? And so I started to establish and build this new framework, or this new mindset.

Amy: Wow amazing. Well I just have to say you know from my perspective it wasn’t that you managed it well you were incredibly courageous. I mean you stepped out there With a, I was going to say a golf stick. What’s it called? You

Andrew: My golf club.

Amy: There you go. wow. just incredible.

But how fantastic that you sought that help and that you worked it through. And, you’ve managed to reset, if you like, that sense of identity from actually being incredibly courageous and realising, what you had achieved through that whole process.

So how did that courage help you to discover your identity, if you like?

Andrew: Well, I think it was partly about rediscovering. Because I’d already had a good foundation. I’d already had a very, good, successful career, even in the midst of some of the challenge and difficulty, great team, great results. of course there, there’s pressure points, in the work that we’re doing.

It was really just a matter of, coming back to the truth that I knew about me. And taking those kind of tenants, if you like, of what’s my character? What am I like? How have I led well in the past? What is it about me that is able to inspire and encourage people? Where does my best work come from?

And just really establishing a clear picture of those things for me and then just having the courage to, to re engage with people and, and lean into those things.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Did it feel like a natural follow on then, that presumably after that time you then took on this role of Director of Sustainability and Wellbeing at the Bank.

Andrew: Yeah,

that was also just another one of those moments that kind of sprung itself. So I basically returned to the work I was doing, and I have to say, that was managed all very well and, there was great support during that process. But rather bizarrely, it was just one of those moments where the chap running the global insurance business at the time, was having an off site and I was invited to, join him facilitate a conversation about leadership culture.

There wasn’t much more of a brief than that. and, And, so I think we had about 90 minutes with about 35 different country managers from around the world in a room. We happened to be in a hotel in Paris and the way that the conversation there was a healthy, and safe and appropriate expression of both some of the great stuff that was happening around the business or around the leadership table, but also we managed to highlight there were some tensions there that needed resolving, but it wasn’t done in a messy way,

and I think part of that was the sort of character and style that I bring. And so at the end of that off site event, the leader of the business asked me. He just said, listen, why don’t you spend a year doing this? So how about pulling away from what you’re doing commercially and helping us on this culture project? And so with that came a job title shift. And, to be honest, HSBC had always been very passionate about the environment sustainability. It wasn’t a new thing for them, but within the insurance business, we had some work to do in that space, both in terms of culturally, but also from policy.

And so I was asked to, lean into that project and given the opportunity to do the wellbeing We were able to do all that stuff with the Senior Leadership Teams and then also hand in hand look at policies that we had in place. So it was just, it was one of those moments, and for me that became obvious quite quickly that the 20 years up till then Thank you

had really been preparation for this type of work which I found really engaging, really fulfilling, but I was able to really deeply understand some of those business and commercial and leadership challenges that existed, but also interestingly bring back some of that youth worker stuff.

I often joke with people that, you know, to this day, and I hope this remains true my entire career, I think probably the toughest group I’ve worked with would be 13 to 16, 17 year old lads who really don’t want to be listening to you for a day or two. They’d rather be out in the rugby field or something, they don’t want to be sitting in a classroom talking about whatever we’re talking about. And so I haven’t found an executive team quite as challenging or as rude as those guys yet, but anyway, I’m, I hope that holds true.

Amy: I hope so for you as well. How, how brilliant. Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it, to look back on your life and see how the bits all piece together and voila, here we are today. And again, that, that role, that final role at HSBC. was such a stepping stone to what you’re doing now.

So just tell us before we move into some thoughts and questions from the people who are joining us here today live, just tell us a little bit about how you help senior leaders today to create new and more effective mindsets.

Andrew: Well I think firstly it flows out of my own learning, my own story.

Amy: I talked earlier on about, you asked me about what I learned way back, in the monastery, and I talked about leading from something that you have, that is your story, so this grew for me. I haven’t done formal study in psychology, but I’ve read extensively.

Andrew: I’ve also worked with a number of psychologists just to make sure that what I’m doing is scientifically sound. But there, there was just a natural progression at the end of that project with HSBC, I went off and did some of this work on my own for maybe three years or so, and then you know, 18 months ago, I was, really, privileged to be invited to bring my work into Odgers Berndtson .

And, so what I’m doing now is working with mostly executive teams, C suite teams. I do some one on one coaching as well, and there’s really three elements. that we focus on. Firstly is, Odgers has got this fantastic psychometric profiling tool, and I work alongside some very talented people who do shortlisting, interviewing, and assessments at, the chair and CEO level.

But this tool that we have creates a leadership profile, 10 competencies, But it also has the ability to create a leadership competency profile for a team. And so I looked at this and thought, we should be using this for teams. So the first thing that we do is we just say, what is your team profile?

What are the leadership competencies, strength, development needs as a team? When you come together, what is it going to look like? How could you be supporting each other using the natural leadership attributes that exist around the table? We then look at what I was doing in HSBC, which is really around behaviours.

So what are the leadership behaviours that we need to be, leaning into and developing as a team to be fulfilling the strategy that we have to deliver on? And so we know that there’s always some tensions around the table, and, bringing those out needs to be done carefully and well.

And so there’s a part around just bringing those to the surface, but then also zeroing in on what is it that we’re going to go after and how can we do that? How can we support each other to do that? And then from there, we’ve got these leadership behaviours that we’re focused on. So then we go into

Okay, great. We’ve got a strategy. We know what we’re doing. You know, we have a mandate to deliver. We’ve kind of aired and cleared the air a bit, but how are we actually going to operate more effectively differently or better? And that’s where the mindset shift comes in. So, we identify current mindset as a team and then we look to build a new mindset.

So, what are the scene? What’s the emotion? What’s the truth that we need to create around that as a team that we can really believe in and make our story? And, and we create that new leadership mindset and then I try and hold these teams to account to let’s make this best version of ourselves a reality.

How are we going to bring this to life? What are we going to do to, to raise our standard? And I understand the challenges of that because I do it every day myself.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. But it sounds like also, with your sense of humility that you’re able to nurture teams on that journey. So it enables them to discover their identity as a team, and be courageous enough to step into it. Thank you so much, Andrew.

So, Angus, you’ve been looking at some of the thoughts, comments. What are people saying?

Angus: Yeah, we’ve got some good comments here. So Debra Agnes. Thank you, Debra. She’s saying, those are big questions, partly here to work out the answers. I see myself as serving my team, as well as seeking to keep our eyes on our vision and our mission. Listening is a strength, but by no means unique. I’m currently looking for the right next role in which to listen, lead and serve. So what do you reckon to that, Andrew?

Andrew: I just agree wholeheartedly. Probably about five years ago or so, there was that phrase that was kicking around, servant leadership, and I just thought it was really kind of unusual, and did a bit of research on it. But I think that’s it. One of the primary responsibilities as a leader is like, how do we help activate the people that we are leading so that the best of them is coming to the table and we’ve got all of those strengths that can actually harmonize and work together.

It’s really difficult. it’s not easy, but I think, it’s more natural to some people than others, so it sounds, Deborah, like the fact that you’re thinking about it means that you’re probably doing it to an extent anyway. Quite often I think leadership profiles, in senior positions and often CEOs, that they’re not naturally inclined to think that way.

And so they need some help to think about that way first. What is my role? How do I enable my team to be more effective? What responsibilities and resources do I have as a leader to do that whilst, holding the vision clear? And also, you know, is that balance between pulling people up, but also leading from behind and like letting people, find the inspiration they have inside them.

So I think you’re on the right track.

Amy: Great. And Karen Anne Duffy. Hi, Karen Anne. She agrees with Deborah Agnes. And deep questions for a lunchtime. Also, she says, I’m not sure I have a unique gift. I would argue with that, Karen Anne, but a real passion she does have for people and their stories and a high level of empathy. She says she’s looking to develop her leadership skills to be able to move out of middle management into a senior role where she can help develop and drive that strategy.

Any thoughts on best moves for Karen Anne, Andrew?

Andrew: would agree with you, Amy, that absolutely, Karen, you have unique strengths and attributes and your DNA is unique. There’s no one else. I’ve just seen you now on screen, I’ve never seen anyone who looks exactly like you before. So just, you look unique. So actually, the thing that we bring is unique.

And it’s just finding really what that is, and it’s those ingredients of the things that inspire, challenge, excite, draw you on. And, and it’s figuring out, how do I bring more of that into my work? How is my work an opportunity for me to grow in this expression?

And, one of the interesting questions I’ve surveyed many C suite teams around the world on is something along the lines of, I now have a qualitative study on this in terms of I have enough data. What percentage of your best shows up at the leadership table?

And, I would say we’re probably at about 60 percent having asked that question. So then the question is, well, what’s holding back the 40%? You know, um, and especially that, you know, it. So you recognize that there’s something in you that you’re not bringing and it’s something of your best that you’re not bringing here.

And what is it? And I honestly think usually it’s unlocked through better relationships. It’s not normally a strategy or a system or a process issue, it’s more about strength, quality of relationship, trust. Learning to be able to trust each other more effectively and more appropriately and learning that it’s safe for me to suggest something that seems a bit crazy or to go after this, this thing or have the courage to lead on something.

Like we’re doing this thing right now as a team, this really excites me. It’s not in my job description, how can I get involved in that? So I think it’s finding the lights in the business, Karen, if you like, that’s wow, that captures my interest. And, just finding ways to get involved in that, you find the things that, that bring you more life.

Amy: Yeah. Yeah. Great questions. Wow. more big ones.

Angus: we have.

Amy: we only do big questions here.

Angus: Well, we have another big question from Chris Garner. Thank you, Chris. And he resonates with your earlier point, Andrew, about bringing humanity into corporate environments. He has found that traditionally such cultures seem to favour professionalism over people, not the other way around. He’s keen to rebalance that and it can be as simply as starting to be consistently kind towards others, while still championing excellence and professionalism.

Andrew: Yeah. once again, Chris, I think you’ve laid it out there. I totally agree with what you’re saying, and I think the word that jumps out for me is balance, right? So, because it’s not one or the other. If I am a fireman, just to use a different kind of situation, but what’s very obvious, I need to be really, really skilled at being able to do everything a fireman can do.

I need to know how to use the equipment. I need to have a strength about me. I need to have sort of a level headedness, et cetera. I need to have that teamwork, et cetera. but, equally, if I do that and I’m just not a nice human being, or I’m not relating well to the people around me, then that’s actually going to affect my ability,

and in fact, the team’s ability. So there’s this balance that needs to be struck, and I think in corporate life in particular, at least my experiences, we just really pull to the delivery. And, and we don’t invest nearly enough in that people side of things, but when we do, whenever we do, I’ve never had a team or a leader say, gee, that was a waste of money, we shouldn’t have done that. Whenever I’m doing an off site with a team, they always want more, even though they can’t afford it, they haven’t got the time to do it, but, when we do focus quality investment in that relationship building together, in the context of the business that we have to deliver, then our work is just so much more effective.

So, you know, thanks, thanks, Chris. You know, glad we have another. Another, another believer on side.

Amy: Great. Louise Morley says, I think the point is knowing people well enough to easily pick up if any behaviours or performance have changed, knowing this and providing a safe environment to discuss is vital. Absolutely, Louise. Comments, any further comments to that, Andrew?

Andrew: Yeah, no, totally agree. Totally agree. And I think there is something about then when you’ve noticed that it’s then there’s that moment of courage, for what am I going to do about it? What’s the right thing? I’m working with a leadership team now, and I know each individual You know, to a level, because I’m working with them on a one on one level, and I was in a meeting recently, and I saw a particular member of the team, and I just saw a little bit of a struggle, around the table.

It might not have been obvious to others, it may well have been, but then there was that moment afterwards of me saying, hey, can I grab five minutes with you? And just saying here’s what I noticed, or here’s what I saw. Were you aware of that? And what’s going on for you? Are you okay? And, actually this lady she had no awareness of this particular thing.

So it was just bringing it to her attention. On another occasion, it might’ve been, yeah, I am aware of it, but I’m actually afraid, or I’m dealing with this pressure right now, or I’ve got this thing going on at home, or I’ve got a deadline, and therefore I’m deliberately disengaging a bit.

But even for me, I was like, oh, do I do this? How do I do this well? How do I do it in a way that’s going to get a good outcome? This occasion I spoke to this lady, on another occasion I might have spoken to the head of HR or chosen a different approach, but, doing something is the important thing.

Amy: Absolutely. One of our mantras is doing nothing is not an option.

Andrew: Great, I totally agree.

Amy: yeah,

Angus: One final question here from Catherine Robertson. Hello, Catherine, good to see you. And she’s saying, Being humble, having humility, and delegating to my team and being able to let go. Her comments there.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, once again, I just completely agree. And I think the delegation point’s really interesting because early in my career, I was told I was a control freak. I didn’t, I thought that was a good thing. I was like, Oh, that sounds good to me. but part of knowing yourself and who am I’ve realized that actually I do have a tendency to want to control things.

And sometimes that’s excellent, but other times it’s really, really not. And so it’s knowing, when is that delegation right? And when actually do I need to step in, to, for me, what’s a natural gift, but for someone else, it might be stepping in and controlling or bringing that order or that direction?

That might be the thing that takes courage for someone else because then they’re brilliant delegators, but those moments of different type of leadership. That’s for each of us is our own journey of discovery, what are the things that come naturally that I lead with, and when do I need to be leaning into the things that I tend to shy away from.

Amy: Great. Fantastic. Let’s hear now, Andrew, some of your top tips. And your first one that you have for us today is Vision. Know where you’re going and why. Tell us a little bit about that.

Andrew: Hopefully it’s remarkably obvious. I think without vision, people perish, right? So they’re just, without it, but it’s, I have to say, it’s scary, how often that’s not there. So you speak to a team of people and you ask for that statement, what is this team about?

Amy: Or what is it? What is it that we have to deliver? Where are we going? It’s actually more, unusual to get a really, really concise, common, clear answer from a team of people, and so that’s usually just a challenge back, Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? That, often there’s not, that common understanding and it needs to be voiced a lot, doesn’t it? For it to really stick.

Andrew: Great leaders do it every day or every week at least,

Amy: yeah. Impact. So build reflection muscles. Tell us a bit more about that.

Andrew: Yeah, well, for me, so this kind of relates back to my story, and I think one of the unique things that I bring is inviting people into that space of, okay, so you’re doing this right now, you’re like, this is your job title, this is your description, you’re on this team, this is your delivery, etc.

Like, how good are you at doing that thing right now? And what is the impact of your leadership? So what is the impact of you sitting on this leadership team? What would it look like if you weren’t here? What is the special, unique thing that you bring? And equally, if you turn around and then, ask the people that you’re leading, what is it about you that they enjoy, that they find really great?

What are the biggest frustrations your team has about you? What are the two or three things that you might focus on or do differently? There’s just going to bring much more, there’s going to increase the impact of your leadership and these are things that we just don’t do very often.

So if you can build those reflection muscles, so it might be a daily 10 minutes, it might be a weekly 30 minutes or something, but just, stopping and assessing and even asking a peer or a buddy or someone that is reporting to you, how are you experiencing this right now? And how could it be better?

Amy: Wonderful. it’s reminding me of your time in the monastery, that time to reflect, and ask for information back, whether it’s to yourself or from others. Balance is your third point. Balance. Know and protect what’s important.

Andrew: Yeah. So this is about we’re going after things in our careers and we have things to deliver. And I think it’s knowing, well, what am I prepared to sacrifice and what aren’t I prepared to sacrifice? And I think interestingly with everything being digital, there’s been a massive spill over now.

And it’s just interesting to note how much of the things that bring me life, that actually make me better at my work, am I fostering or paying attention to or doing? And this is a message for me as much as everyone else, because I find it very easy to get out of balance, and when we’re not in balance, that’s sometimes when we have some of those mental health challenges, things start to tip.

Amy: Yeah. Your fourth point, culture. Treat others as you want to be treated.

Andrew: Yeah, I think this kind of sums it up, really. I think it’s called the golden rule, right? But, I think if we do this, generally speaking, we’ll be happy and the people that we’re working with will be happy as well, right? Because you’re creating the culture that, that you want to enjoy and see.

Amy: Yeah, definitely. And your final top tip for us is live, breathe, rest, laugh, cry, etc.

Andrew: All of the above, all of the, all of those points. Our practice head here at Odgers, she says to us when we’re dealing with something, she just reminds us to breathe. Breathing is so important. There’s a lot of great books about, about that right now, that’s a starting point.

And the effectiveness of pausing and breathing deeply and reflecting is a complete shift, both in our brain chemistry, but also just enables us to reframe. And then all those other things are important as well. I   was speaking with a person yesterday, and, this person said that they cried, and it was the first time they’d cried in many, many years.

And we just talked about what that felt like, why they hadn’t cried for so long, what sort of impact that might have on a whole bunch of things that they’re dealing with right now. Um, Similarly laughter, so all of these things actually we should be doing, as part of the balance equation, I think.

Amy: Yeah, writing, singing, exercising, sleeping, eating well, all those things that actually are commonplace but often we forget to do. Andrew, I’m going to push on now and ask you a few quickfire questions. So, what does vulnerability mean to you?

Andrew: I think for me, it’s authenticity. It’s about having the courage to be who I know myself to be.

Amy: Lovely. And what little thing do you do, notice, zoom into, celebrate every day?

Andrew: I do actually celebrate my breath. So this has been a recent focus for me. My wife read a book called Breathe and, and I noticed that I was just taking my breath for granted. And so most days I’m just pause and I’m really thankful for my breath. And I noticed that makes me take better breaths.

Amy: Wonderful. What message would you give your younger self? Just a quick fire answer for us here.

Andrew: That’s a great question. Keep going, just keep going.

Amy: going. Wonderful. What message would your younger self give you?

Andrew: Keep going. Keep going, it’s worth it

Amy: Lovely. And what would you say to leaders that use only plasters, give lip service to workplace mental health.

Andrew: Be courageous. If you want to see the best of your people, then lean into the mess, have the courage to, to go there, and I think you’ll discover all sorts of great resources in the business that at the moment, perhaps are just, hidden.

Amy: Fantastic. Andrew, thank you so much. I’m going to pass over now to Angus who will thank you more formally.

Angus: Andrew, one of the great privileges that we have of running a wellbeing hour is hearing amazing stories, Meeting amazing people and hearing more about them. That was super thought provoking. It was a journey of fear, courage, insight and discovery. It was very human. It was very, very honest. I love that you spent 20 years prepping to do that wellbeing job.

It’s just wonderful that cycle of life, you’re looking back on it and taking the richness out of it and saying well, that’s really got me to where I am now. This is a right thing. There’s a right path. And what comes across loud and clear is huge courage and huge bravery, there’s absolutely no doubt about that.

So thank you very, very much from everybody at Headtorch, everybody who is here and everybody who’s going to listen to this. That was a really insightful and thought provoking Wellbeing Hour. Thank you, Andrew.

Andrew: Thank you so much.

Angus: It’s our pleasure. So, coming up on the Wellbeing Hour, next month, we have a panel event. So we ran a panel event earlier in the year, and we have a number of young people on it who are Gen Z, if you like. We have Debbie Aikamhenze, who’s a sales engineer with Spirax, we have Aoife Murphy, who works with Baillie Gifford, and we have Elliot Sorbie, who works with Altrad, and we’re going to be discussing with them, what is it that Gen Z are looking for in terms of workplace mental health?

What are they looking for? So join us for that. It’s a different format, it’s going to be a really fascinating one as well, and we look forward to seeing as many people there as we can see. We also have coming up, a number of events. We’re building a mentally healthy culture. We’re running a session with CEED, which is an organisation up here in Scotland.

That is at the Advanced Research Centre, University of Glasgow. So if anybody wants to join that, the link is there. Nick has put the link in the chat for us there. If you want to register for that or want more information, let us know. We also have an open event, On Confident, Supportive Conversations, that’s with Women in Nuclear. It’s going to be at Babcock International Group down in Bristol. So again, drop us a note if you’re interested in coming along to that. We have the Wellbeing Panel event that I mentioned, and we also are speaking and exhibiting at the Scottish Manufacturing Conference at the end of October.

So a fair amount there in the Headtorch diary. It’s a great pleasure running these, as I said, if you would like a free consultation, scan that QR code there. We have a whole lot more solutions for senior leaders, people managers, and direct and indirect staff. Get in touch, we’d love to hear from you.

That’s it from the Wellbeing Hour. Again, thank you everybody, and have great days.

Amy: Thank you, everyone. Bye bye. Thank you.

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