The Wellbeing Hour #43 Your Career & Mental Health, is your Workplace Making the Connection?

Text transcript

Wellbeing Hour Panel February 25

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Amy: We’re really excited, to be hosting this panel event, the first panel event of the year, on the Wellbeing Hour, and there’s lots to talk about, obviously, under the title Your Career, Your Mental Health,

is your workplace making the connection? And for those of you who are joining us live, we have a question that we would like to pose to you. This is the question, and it will be put in the chat for you as well. So connecting careers and mental health, what’s helped you most?

So do add your thoughts to the chat. And we will pick up on those  thoughts and comments a little later on in today’s conversations. So it gives me great pleasure then to introduce our Panel, who do we have for you today, folks?

We have the amazing Jane Barrett, who is a career coach and she’s an author and former recruitment leader with 20 years of experience of running career development events at top European business schools, Amazon, Prudential and Nissan. and her business is The Career Farm. Then we have Susan Gee, who is Head of Occupational Health and Wellbeing at Yorkshire Water, with over 40 years experience, including work with Bradford Council, Morrisons, and a former lecturer at Leeds Beckett University.

And then we have the fantastic Mark Lawrence, who is HR, Learning Analytics Leader, Consultant and Author with 25 years experience, including  roles at PWC, IBM, GSK and Diagio. Currently, he’s leading the data reporting and analytics strategy, for Deloitte Central Business Services while managing his own advisory firm. Data Driven HR. So a very warm welcome to you all, we’re really delighted that you are here with us today. So I’m going to ask you now, each of you in turn, to introduce yourselves with your mystery object. So Jane, would you like to introduce yourself please with your mystery object?

Jane: Thank you. Well, mine’s my book. And the reason for that is I think it does sum up actually quite a lot about me. So it is my philosophy which is it’s called Taking Charge of your Career and my philosophy is very much kind of being proactive. The second piece is that I like to have a structure  to work through, with clients.

I’m flexible within that, but that’s my approach and it definitely has a structure, the book. And then the third one is I’m very collaborative. I love working with people. I wrote this with the late Camilla Arnold, who was head of coaching, for a consultancy. She was an excellent coach and we, I could have written it by myself, but actually it was a much better book.

to write with her. So I’m very collaborative. I love working with other people. I’ve loved working with Headtorch. yeah,

Amy: great, excellent. Thank you. Welcome in, Jane. Susan, show and tell your mystery object. What three things does it say about you?

Susan: I’ve got a very tiny little silver crab. that my mother bought me in Whitby many years ago, because I used to live in Whitby, my parents had a hotel there years ago, and what does a crab represent about me? Well, they’re tough little individuals, and that’s me, because I’m a tough little northern pensioner, but underneath all that, I’ve actually  got quite a soft underbelly.

I like crabs. They’ve got a lot to survive in the sea, and I think in my career what I’ve realised is that sometimes you’ve got to make sidewards moves. You can’t always go quite in the direction you think, so you’ve got to be prepared to, scuttle about a little bit, but like crabs, you’ve got two big claws for a reason, so sometimes you need to be brave.

You need to get your clackers out, you need to come running out from under your rock, waving about. What happens to me then is that I’m in the middle of it all and I think, oh wow, maybe I should get back under my rock. So I suppose what I’m saying is that there’s times to be brave and then there’s times to just bury yourself, under your rock until you’re sure of yourself.

And that’s been my career, really.

Amy: Well, thank you. Thank you, Susan. Thank you so much for scuttling your way in today, we’re  really delighted to have you with us. Mark. Do share your mystery object. Tell us three things it says about you.

Mark: It’s easier to pick up. This is my snowboard. it is one of two that I own. What does it tell you about me? Well, it’s a snowboard. So, one of the most important parts of my life is sport. I’ve come to learn just how important it is. I was very sporty as a youngster and then through focus of work and children and families and things like that, I started to overlook it.

And the impact that it had on me when I wasn’t being active, when I wasn’t out there doing as much as I could be doing actively. It was quite dramatic and so I’ve forced myself to get back into, into a sporting lifestyle. Not a huge amount of snowboarding in Yorkshire, as you’re probably aware, that said, I do, actually, where I live,  I’m fortunate I’ve got some big hills around, so when it does snow, I can actually take this out and find some places to go, but what else does it tell you about me?

Firstly, this is one of two, as I mentioned, so this is my older, my first board, and it’s a bit old and battered. I love the old and battered, but also I’m not afraid to upgrade and to try and continually improve. And then the third thing about me is, although I work as a scientist at the intersection of kind of data and behavior, I also have a love of design and a snowboard is just like that, it is an intersection of all of those three things which I really appreciate.

Amy: Fantastic. Thank you very much, Mark, and what a beautifully designed panel we have with us today. So thank all for joining us. Let’s crack on with the questions. For those of you that are listening in, thank you again for joining us, and remember that  question is in the chat, so do add your thoughts to that question and anything else that comes up as we go into conversation here and we’ll pick up on your responses in a short while.

So let’s crack on. What’s the connection between careers and mental health? What’s the connection between careers and mental health? Susan, let me put that question first to you.

Susan: Well, I think,in order to have a successful career, your mental health has got to be in a position where it’s, it’s always going to be up and down and changing, depending on the environment that you’re in, but to have a good career, you need to be in the right environment. So your environment needs to be psychologically safe, you need to be able to be, I’m not keen on the word really, vulnerable, but I think the thing is that a lot of businesses have got hierarchy, but there does need to be an  equality across a workplace so that people can speak up and stand up.

If your mental health can be supported to thrive in a workplace, then you are going to be given the best opportunity to flourish in that workplace or any workplace for that matter. So yeah, there’s an absolute connection and of course, physical health and mental health, all of it, from an occupational health point of view, I work very much from a biopsychosocial model of health.

So it’s all about you know, the environment, the people, the social aspect, the support. Making the circumstances right, really,

Amy: Yeah, great. Thanks, Susan.

Flourishing and thriving, two of our, two of our favourite words. Mark, what about you? What for you, is the connection between careers and mental health?

Mark: Well, I think, for me, it’s always been about trying to be purposeful. and I think, different organizations have different cultures, and it’s important to understand the  impact of that culture when you’re planning your career, because there will be some organizations where they will put the onus on the individual to say, right, it’s up to you to figure out how you’re going to be happy here, how you’re going to thrive how you’re going to put yourself in the right fit.

Other organisations will take a more paternalistic approach where they will, try to put in place the right kinds of programs and support. But for me, I think you can’t rely on one or the other. You can’t make an assumption that just because it was one way in a, in one organisation, you move jobs and you expect it to be the same in another organisation.

So for me, I think, you have to really drive your own purpose. And, and if you’re in control of the decisions that you’re making, then hopefully you’re making the right kind of outcomes, both for your, mental wellbeing, but also for your career. And as we know, we spend so much of our time at work

it’s really important that you enjoy work and you enjoy that environment.

Amy: Absolutely. Environment. It’s the culture that fits, isn’t  it? Feeling that you fit within that culture, and we’ll get on to more that sense of feeling that you fit within the culture, within the values and how important that is to, to how we show up every day. Thank you, Mark.

Jane, what for you is the connection between careers and mental health?

Jane: Obviously there is a big connection and in the work that I do, a lot of it, I see it’s around the relationship with your manager. And I know from my own personal experience, that has been true. I’ve had a dreadful manager who would undermine you, belittle you, bully you, and got away with it.

And then I’ve had really supportive managers as well. and I know that for me, that made a big impact on my mental health and how I showed up and how confident I was. Because, you know, if that happens to you relentlessly, then you start to, your confidence starts to go. I think that’s one, one key element that I see a lot, in my own life.

I’ve seen that, and I’ve seen that a lot in clients that, they struggle with their mental health  because of, a bad relationship with their manager, and that can lead to burnout as well. We particularly see that in startups. I’m seeing at the moment that it’s relentless, that pressure. Having a great manager is a really key element that I see in my work around mental health.

Amy: Definitely, yeah.

Jane: There are obviously other elements as well, but currently at the moment, I’m seeing quite a lot of that.

Amy: Yeah, definitely. Well, there’s a piece of research that came out, I think it was 2023, that said that basically your manager has equal impact on your mental health as your spouse, so, you know, quite a big impact. Great. So let’s move on to question two. Mark, we’ll start with you for this one. Someone’s in the wrong job and it’s impacting their mental health.

How do you help them to move on to what’s right for them?

Mark: Yeah, it’s a really tough one. And the first thing to say is I think. not all managers are necessarily built for this. And,and so I think  organizations do have a need to try and make sure that their line management and that their senior leadership have the appropriate skill set. But if it were me, I think what I would be trying to do is adopt a coaching style.

and in fact, I do actually, have numerous examples where I’ve worked with people who maybe report to me directly, or people who may, be in a broader reporting line, to help them identify what it is that they actually enjoy through work, what kind of conditions they might thrive under, and then to try and help see if that is a reality from the position that they’re in at that point in time.

Now, that can lead to some difficult conversations, and as I say, I think some managers are uncomfortable with difficult conversations. Some shy away from those situations that might look like they’re leading in that direction. but those difficult conversations, they can be difficult for a number of reasons.

I think on the one hand,  The obvious one is that we might uncover that this is not the appropriate place for that person to be working. And that’s a really tough thing to say, especially when you’re talking about somebody who may already be feeling vulnerable, who may already be feeling a little bit unsafe.

to try and help them identify a future path is so important. So it’s not just stopping at a point in saying, well, this isn’t working, so you’ve got to find something else, because actually all that’s going to do is make people feel lower. Now, what I’ve said to people in the past that I manage and I think probably nearly everyone I’ve managed will hopefully attest to this, is when I start that relationship, It doesn’t end when one of us moves jobs, but actually, I consider the managerial relationship to be a lengthy relationship that’s not bounded by the role itself.

So as long as it’s a useful and  healthy relationship, it’s something that should continue and pervade as long as both parties want it to. So it can turn into a kind of coaching or counselling modality, but I think that supportive ethos and that ability to try and help guide individuals is why managers should become managers, right?

This is where people actually have a choice to make, and if they’re not really able to help have those difficult conversations, then probably they’re not in the right job.

Amy: Yeah. Thanks, Mark. Follow that, Jane. How do you help someone to move on to what’s right for them?

Jane: Yeah, mean, I have had this within an organisation where, people are in the wrong roles, and it’s really unpacking exactly what’s wrong here. Is it that, that they’re just not using their strengths enough in their role? I was thinking as Mark was talking that it’s often recruitment, that it’s not right that, and there is, there has been a change in  recruitment that companies now, many of them recruit using strength based interviewing techniques, which is a move forward.

And, recruitment is hard. It’s hard to get the right people and, you know, and make sure that you hire the right people, but also when you go to interview, you want the job, so you’re saying you can do all these things, whether you actually enjoy it, you might be able to do it, but eventually, after a certain amount of time, it may be that you’re not enjoying it, and therefore that’s affecting your performance.

You can do it, but you’re not enjoying it, and that isn’t sustainable over the long term. So I think there’s a couple of things there. There, there has to be I think some responsibility on the organization to hire really well. And I think also in areas where there’s skill gaps, people will hire quickly because they need people,

but actually, that can not work out. So I think there’s two parts to this. It’s the organization’s responsibility to hire well. Hopefully also to be able to be big enough to be able to move people around, go on  secondment, move them internally. I think, That’s a really good sign of an organization being able to offer different career paths and like Susan was talking about, moving sideways and to get different experience and move into an area that’s perhaps better suited.

But not organizations can do that. And as Mark said, sometimes you just have to have that tough conversation and support them as much as you can into a role somewhere else.

Amy: absolutely. The worst thing you can do is ignore it, right? Because it’s not good for anyone. Great. Thank you very much, Jane. What are your thoughts on this question, Susan?

Susan: Well to Mark’s point, I think, it’s really important that line managers are comfortable and suited to having a basic understanding of how to have a conversation that’s supportive. You can say anything to anybody, providing you can deal with the reaction. You don’t always like everybody that you work with, or you might not have a great rapport, but I always try to look behind the eyes and  think, somebody loves this person, and if I love them, how would I want them to be, how would I want this conversation to land?

So I think there’s that, and this idea that having a technically great manager, who is a social psychopath is acceptable, is not acceptable. The 1970s have gone, we’re not our employer’s property, they are a person. And again, to Jane’s point, and it, both of what you’ve said resonates with me, recruitment, because if you are advertising, so if I’m saying this is a crap, It needs to look like a crab and not, it’s lipstick on the pig.

It’s still a pig, so let’s just be clear about what we’re selling here. Because I think if somebody really lands in the wrong job, then there is a huge organisational responsibility because people should not be  landing in the wrong job. They might be in the wrong job then because

they’re not working with the right people or there’s the culture issues, but essentially what fascinates me about it is we recruit people and you get them in, you’re all excited. It’s almost like getting new shoes, you can’t wait to get them out of the box and rip off the packaging,

let’s get it out and see what it is. But the thing is, it’s almost like the minute we get hold of them, we’re designed then to try to work them out. The other thing I think as well is that people need to have the opportunity to be able to say, actually, I’ve got this, but I don’t think it’s right for me.

So you get here, and then it’s almost like a covert exercise getting out of an organisation because you daren’t say I don’t like it for fear of being chucked out, and given all the challenges in life. nobody wants that, but there isn’t often a safe way. And I have to say  just a quick promotion here for Yorkshire Water,

we’re just developing a thing now where people can say, actually I’ve had enough here, or this isn’t working for me, or I’d like to do something else, without fear of being escorted off the premises, theoretically speaking. So I think, to answer the question, I’ve gone a long way around the houses is, it is about recruiting the right people.

It is about having good line management skills. And it’s also about being able to have honest and open conversations, grown ups.

Amy: Definitely, definitely. Yeah, it’s about that psychological safety, isn’t it? Able to speak up without fear. Mark, you wanted to add something else in here?

Mark: I think that’s absolutely right and as we’ve been talking I suppose the other reflection that I had is, actually, jobs change as well while we’re in them. If you were hired at a particular point in time, you were hired potentially for a role that looked and sounded like that role, but within six months or six years, that role and the context for that role will have changed.

And so I think there is something about expectation management that actually everybody should be looking for that kind of, either promotion or lateral development. Susan, you made the point earlier about how you’ve expanded your career laterally several times and things like that,

and I think that’s a great example that others should also take cues from because, sometimes when people do say, you know what, I don’t think I’m performing well, or I don’t think this is quite for me, actually it could be because that job has changed around them. And again, I think the organization has a responsibility there to help them see what alternative pathways may exist.

Susan: I’d just like to say to that as well, when we think about ill health in the workplace and particularly mental ill health, um, I think there’s a couple of things. One of my sort of go to’s is, is someone incapable because they’re ill or are they ill because they’re incapable? So you’ve got the idea that people can be overly promoted or seduced.

I’ve, been seduced  into roles that I thought were great and actually, I’ve looked at the wrong things. So I think it’s really important when you’re considering a job, what is it about it, because if it’s just the top line pay, it’s a bad idea. You need to work towards something you’re probably going to love, like your favourite teddy.

And if it pays well, great stuff, but if it, if it doesn’t, then don’t be seduced by a vanity project, I would say.

Amy: Thankyou very much. Fantastic. It’s really all about being able to have supportive conversations and reach out to others and equally feel safe to speak up if we don’t feel, if we’re not happy, right? Is it so much to ask? Really? Let’s move on to our next question. Jane, we’ll start with you with this question.

So when our values, which kind of ties into what we’ve just been talking about, but when our values aren’t met at work, how do you see this playing out in terms of affecting our career and our mental health?  yeah,

Jane: I think it’s something that in my work I see becomes more important as you get more experienced and you’ve been in the workplace a bit more, you possibly realise that actually values are more important to you. I’ve, I suppose I’ve seen that in the work that I do. I think often early on in your career, you just want to get a job and you want to get some experience.

And, although having said that, some of the younger generation are increasingly values led in terms of who they want to work for. So I, I think when your values are not met, it has definitely has an impact on your mental health. yeah. because I think you feel like you can’t be yourself.

You don’t have that sense of purpose is ikigai, that Japanese saying, that, that reason to go to work, that reason to do what you do, if that’s jarring, either in your work or in the company, then that can affect you. Maybe you can cope with it for a certain amount of time, but after time it starts to wear you down.

And  I suppose that’s what I’m saying. I see that as people progress in their career, it’s like, it’s okay for a certain amount of time, but after a certain amount of time I’m done. And I do need to do work that I, that meets my values or be in an organization that is meeting my values.

So I do very much see a connection, both personally and with the organization. but everyone’s different, and, I lecture at business schools to MBAs, executive MBAs, and they all have different values and they all have different things that are important to them. So for, everyone’s really different in terms of their values, but it’s really important for people to think about their values and prioritise which are the most important ones.

And sometimes you have to compromise a bit and it’s knowing what you’re prepared to compromise on and what you’re not prepared to compromise on.

Amy: yeah.

Beautiful. Personally speaking, I know when it’s just not sitting, when you just can’t handle that. Yeah, the imbalance is too much. Yeah, that’s time to go.

Jane: Yeah.

Amy: Susan, what are your thoughts when our values aren’t met at work? How does it  affect our career and our mental health?

Susan: I think it has a massively negative impact. massively negative impact. It’s a bit like the Cinderella syndrome really, where you put the slipper on and you’re desperate for it to fit but it’s really nipping and what I think people do, is instead of accepting that It’s not working, they keep trying to move around the room, if you like, metaphorically speaking, to find a corner where it’s going to feel like it’s working.

But I think once you realise it’s not for you, and I would promote Jane’s book on this, which I have read, and it is excellent, just saying people,

Amy: Let’s see it again, Jane.

Susan: Yeah. But, yeah, do hold it up. Yeah. And it’s, it is the title I think of taking charge. So from a personal experience, and, just by way of example, I’m not gonna name where this was, but many years ago, I was made redundant from a  hospital, position.

I had a fairly senior role, and then I did a lot of agency work. And then for a while, I was desperate for a job and this dream job came up and I got it. And I was thinking, this is it. I’ve, this is gonna be great. And I didn’t get on with the manager for various reasons. Anyway, it doesn’t really matter. But what I realized very quickly was, it wasn’t gonna work. We were way too polar opposites. She was obviously more superior to me. So four months in, I resigned. And I just left. And it was really scary, but I just knew that I was, trying to make it work.

I think I’ve said this to you, Amy, I’ve had a lifelong hatred of smoked haddock. I don’t know why, but I don’t like it. And people say to me, have you had it in so and so? But it doesn’t matter what it’s disguised in, I can’t get away from the taste. So I think sometimes what you’ve got to think about is.

It’s  not a failure to get in a job that really did feel right but isn’t because sometimes we’re all going to make buying mistakes. The main mistake is to keep trying to fall in love with something that is just not for you and it’s to have the courage because you can earn money. You can earn money doing all sorts of things, but it’s very important that your career choices really match up with what’s in your heart.

Amy: Thanks, Susan. brilliant words there. And actually, when you were talking about the Cinderella. Slipper nipping. I was thinking, yeah, it’s a bit like, it’s a bit like putting plasters on all the time on your foot, but actually it’s never going to fit.

Susan: It,

Amy: it’s always going to be uncomfortable. so yeah, thanks.

Thanks for that. Mark, what are your thoughts?

Mark: Yeah, I’ve had to take shoes off that I’ve had to admit were too small for me in the past, so that resonates very strongly with me as well. Look, I think there’s lots of organisational behavioural research around work motivation and, if people feel that  their work is not aligned to the values of the organisation or they can’t see a linkage, then we definitely see that satisfaction at work starts to reduce.

And you’ll see this, I think probably most people listening to the podcast or observing today will know that they have company wide surveys that seek to measure culture or measure engagement. And you’ll see those same questions and those same kinds of results being replicated time and again.

But, I think at a deeper level, I think there is also a loss of trust and trust is so important to our mental wellbeing. There is, I think, a need for us to want to believe that we are working towards a common goal, that we are all pulling in the same direction, that we’re all wanting to achieve the same outcomes, and that’s partly to a lesser or greater extent why we join the organizations we do in the first place.

So there’s two elements to that. I think on the one side  there was an article which I read last week from Andy Haldane, who’s the former chief economist at the Bank of England, and he was talking about the importance of trust to the economy. A 10 percent boost in trust at a national level equates to a 1 percent boost in GDP.

So it really does carry a lot of power. And that’s why you’ll start to see a lot more surveys, a lot more reports starting to report on this metric of trust. But additionally, I think, coming back to the point about do we actually align to our organisation, it’s much easier to align to an organisation where values make sense to us.

I think it should be easier to find an organization’s values before you join that organization. It might save a lot of time and a lot of heartache. But even when you’re in there, as a provocation, how many organizations really promote wellbeing as part of their formal organizational values? I would suggest very few.

I  think it’s often managed as a program somewhere. But actually what I would like to see. is that everybody is prioritizing it, and it’s really baked into the way organizations work.

Amy: Wonderful. Thanks, Mark. And I think that, I can just add in, I think that often organisations throw out, these are our values. It’s well, actually, I’d like to know if I’m going to join your organisation, some examples of this in practice, because so often, so often we’ll hear people say, yeah, those are the values, but we don’t see them.

We don’t feel them, we don’t recognise them. So I think that’s, important to bring to life, isn’t it? To make real.

Susan: One of the things that we’ve done, just very briefly, is we’ve now taken responsibility for wellbeing. It’s not a term I’m in love with. Wellbeing is a by product of good work. It’s a by product of well organised work, all of that kind of thing. It’s not something that you can buy off the shelf,  but, we’ve taken the decision to move it out of Occupational Health and it’s now being owned in the workplace.

So I’ve now got, employees who are not medical, they’re not clinical, they have developed the most fantastic, set of wellbeing questions, we’ve set up wellbeing hubs, we’ve got 105 wellbeing leads now across the business, and they’re directing. It’s almost like a health needs assessment if you like, but what’s great about it is it’s an in time dynamic, ongoing discussion about what’s happening for them now, and it’s pertinent to each area. And they’ve done this genius, it is genius as far as I’m concerned, through this Power BI, so at any point you can actually look in and so the two weeks ago, I know I’ve been on holiday since then, that 76 percent of our workforce were happy that week, and it gives you good insights.

And it’s really  good in terms of the management of change, because to your point, Amy, there’s no point flinging out your values and saying, well, this is what we do around here, if actually we don’t. It’s very quickly, people wake up to that.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Let’s move on to, one more question before we have a chat around your thoughts in the chat. so we’ll start with you, Susan What, what culture do you need for people to have career conversations safely? Maybe ties into what you were just talking about there.

Susan: What culture? Well. I think it’s about a common purpose, really. I think one of the things that companies forget a lot of the time is that, you can get these, kind of internal conflicts and working in silos, or it can become very hierarchical and competitive.

Whereas, actually, it’s we’ve got four and a half thousand people all over Yorkshire, and doesn’t matter what job you’re doing, we’re working for Yorkshire Water. For the good of the people of Yorkshire.  And there’s going to be different tensions across it, but I think it’s about working collaboratively for the greater good of everybody in there.

So the culture. And I don’t think you can set the culture particularly. There’s a lot of time spent going oh we need to set the culture. But again, it’s back to recruiting the right people who share the same values. And I think to the earlier points about recruitment and getting the right people and the fact, as Jane said, that there’s now more strengths based interviewing.

Because it’s a bit like buying a house is buying an employee. We all have to turn, we showcase it. You wouldn’t get to a front door of a house and buy it based on, do you like the front door? What we want to do is look in the nooks and crannies, but when you’re at an interview, I want to say I’m fantastic at this, that and the other, but sometimes I’m a bit awkward or, or, sometimes I’ll have a bit

Amy: None of us believe that, Susan.

Susan: yeah, sometimes it can be a bit  difficult. It’s because we expect everybody to come fresh out of the packet and then we don’t expect them ever to have any, have any flaws. So I think whilst we’ve got to have a respectful, values based organization that does respect other people’s opinions and inclusive and all of that, but on the other end of it, we are a bunch of grown ups who come together that have got multifaceted lives, and all of that comes to work.

So my view is, if you want to get the culture right, you need to make sure that the organization facilitates people having a life outside of the 37 that they’re giving you, because if they’ve got a problem, that’s affecting their mental health, then you’ve got a problem.

Another NIA plug for Yorkshire Water, which is why we’ve got a suite of employee benefits and all sorts of things going on to people manage life inside.

Amy: Yeah. Great. Thank you. Thank you.  Mark, what are your thoughts? What’s, what culture do you need for people to have those conversations about careers safely?

Mark: Yeah, it’s a fascinating question and actually what Susan said completely resonates. I think the difficulty for me is actually putting cultures into specific labels. I was once asked a question at a job interview actually, how do you measure culture? And some of my network who might be listening will probably have a better answer than me, but my answer is every organization is different, every culture is different, and therefore you’ve got to identify each culture individually within the context of what it’s trying to achieve. But I think the way that I would try to design a culture, now we know that culture is, often not something that’s easily managed, but if you were going to try and set up a culture from scratch, I think the kinds of things that I’d be looking for are open discussion throughout the employee life cycle.

And, that goes from what Susan was saying and Jane earlier about the recruitment and the onboarding  process. It touches on the supportive managerial experience that I discussed earlier. And the fact that senior leadership needs to be in touch. And I think one indicator that I find interesting from a people analytics perspective, most teams that try to set up advanced data science in their people analytics teams, they start with a predictive model of attrition.

They start with trying to figure out who is likely to leave the organization in the next however many months, usually six to 12 months. And this is great, data work, right? It’s really interesting. It can provide huge competitive advantage. But, I remember having this discussion with a chap called Max Blumberg, a great thinker in this space, and he said, predictive attrition models should be irrelevant if you’ve got the right culture.

If you’ve got the right culture, people are not hiding the fact that they’re going to be looking elsewhere, but they should  be open to discussing that, and managers should be open to supporting with that, and so that’s something which I think is an interesting indicator on a culture.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of ties in with what you said earlier, Susan, about it being a covert operation all too often if you want to leave an organisation. And Jane, your thoughts on this question then?

Jane: I think it’s hard to answer that. I think you’ve covered a lot of ground, you two, but I suppose my thought as you were talking, Mark, was also about how it needs to be led from the absolute top. Often, these things don’t really work unless that culture is being driven of being honest and open from the absolute top, from the CEO to the Board, to, it’s really cascaded then down.

Because I think that’s where it goes wrong sometimes. And you get pockets of good managers who are doing this, but unless it’s supported, then it’s just becomes not a great culture. And I think, I’ve seen that, a fear based culture, toxic culture is, and huge amounts of pressure just doesn’t set this up well.

So  that’s a really important part of it. And I think when you have those interventions, having those career conversations, it’s having everything aligned to that. So having career paths within the different areas of the business as well, showcasing people who have made those transitions.

I worked for Expedia for a while, they were a client of mine and they had brown bag lunches where they’d come and explain what their department was doing in case people were interested at some point in moving over to their department and they really encouraged lateral movement across the business because they didn’t want people to leave.

They wanted if you’re not happy, then maybe you’d be happier in this area doing this type of role. And they were really open to it. They absolutely came from the CEO. Yeah, they did an app and they had a video of the CEO saying, we want to find where you will thrive and we will set up these things.

You can go on secondment we will have, these brown bag lunches. We really want you to be productive and happy in your work. And so it absolutely was led by him. And it was, it was really successful.

Amy: Fantastic. Yeah, so impactful, so important that it is led from the top, that the people at the top are walking the talk, because that, that then gives permission, doesn’t it all the way through your organisation. Thank you so much. Let’s move now to have a look at what people have been sharing in the chat in terms of our question and any other thoughts connecting careers and mental health.

What’s helped you most? Angus, you’ve been sifting through.

the chat, what are folks saying?

Angus: We’ve got a nice question here from Jackie. Jackie Vaz. Good to see you here, Jackie. And, she’s saying that an amazing manager who supported her through a very challenging and stressful transition in the workplace is one thing that helped her a lot. I think that’s come across a lot in the conversation, this morning, actually, which is interesting.

Mark, what would you, add to that?

Mark: Yeah, I think that I also have at least two managers from my past that I can point to, to say they really helped me, in different  ways and at different times. I think, firstly, it’s important to be, cognizant of how we recognize that. We all try to instil the right positive behaviours in people and if you’ve got something great to say about a former manager then actually it’s a great thing just to reach out and recognize that either publicly or privately.

I think the  second thing is from a managerial perspective we always have to be very mindful of every little action because we don’t always know how it could be perceived by our team, by other peers around us. and it could be that somebody remembers that one little slip where you maybe were a little bit too short with somebody or a little bit impatient and they still remember that 20 years later.

So it is a real privilege but also a difficulty when it comes to managerial, behaviours.

Angus: Thank you.

Amy: Yeah. I think that ties in also with what you were saying, Mark, around trust, because trust is built in such small increments,  isn’t it, that it just takes one thing for the whole thing to come crashing down, but it’s actually the little things along the way that build that up for us all.

Mark: I had a team member of mine in my last, organisation who said, it can take ten years to build, trust but it can take just one minute to destroy it.

Amy: Yeah,

Susan: I really like the, saying by Mayu Angelou, which is people will forget what you said, would forget what you did, but they won’t forget how you made them feel. And how you make someone feel can be a very destructive if it’s, so it’s that, cause and effect, I think, being mindful of your words.

Amy: definitely.

Angus: There are quite a number of comments. Tara Ferguson, who’s on the next Wellbeing Hour, is agreeing with Jackie there on managers, as is Amanda Way. We’ve got a nice comment here from Mark Shelvey, also good to see you here, Mark. I like Susan’s point that wellbeing comes from well designed work rather than something you can buy in,  subcontract or that a Wellbeing/HR team can basically provide.

Do you want to add a bit more to that, Susan?

Susan: Well, I was fortunate enough, to work with Carol Black around the time 2008 when she did the Fit for Work review and and I’m a great admirer of Dame Carol Black, she’s a wonderful person, and very talented, but I think what I’ve said to Carol is she spawned the birth of the devil child Wellbeing, because it then turned into a sort of happy clappy arena of,let’s put out almond milk and walnuts, let’s buy everybody a coffee.

Would you like to go to the cinema or 20 pound off at Halfords? And, it doesn’t negate working, as I say, for social psychopaths. So the thing about it is, I think it’s, it’s. it’s really important to keep wellbeing where it should be. Wellbeing is a by product of good  work. Good, safe work that’s well rewarded, recognised where people feel valued, where tertiary effort is a by product of that.

And, and it can’t be bought with any kind of benefits or initiatives. I go back to, Lipstick on a pig is still a pig. You can, dress it up, but it’s, it is what it is. So I think it’s not about focusing. Yes, benefits are great. We’ve got some great benefits. Here comes another plug for Yorkshire Water, but if you’re interested in working for us, we’ve got some fantastic benefits, and there are lots of some great people, but they don’t make the job.

They’re the icing on the cake. So that’s what I would say is that if you want wellbeing, then do the things that make people feel, train them so they can leave and treat them so they don’t want to.

Angus: Very

Amy: Great.

Jane: I like that.

Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Super. what else have we got here? Lorraine  Mayer, good to see you Lorraine from West Dunbartonshire Council, supportive manager and colleagues make all the difference in the world, we have each other’s backs. I have also experienced when this is not the case and the difference is incredible.

Is there anything else you’d like to add to that, Jane?

Jane: Yeah. yes, I was just mulling that over. Yeah, that’s so true. And I think it’s about getting the basics right. It’s, I think we’re sometimes in danger of over complicating this, but, as Susan was saying, it’s about getting those basics right. Good management, honest and open conversations, not being fear based, culture.

so yeah, it’s about getting It’s about those basics, but unfortunately I see a lot of this in my work, that there are a lot of bad managers out there, and it’s also, being strong as an organisation to address this and not sweep it under the carpet, particularly in certain industries where you get high performers, where you don’t want to get rid of your high performer, but they’re actually a dreadful  manager and they’re causing a lot of problems in the organization.

You’ve got to be really strong to address that, because it devastates your team and that’s ultimately how you’re going to get your results. It’s tricky when you have those very much individual performers, like in headhunting, that, that those individual performances, then make up what you as a team produce.

But actually, when that person becomes very destructive, it starts affecting everybody else, then you have to address it.

Amy: Yeah.

But it’s difficult for CEOs who are looking at the numbers, so I think it’s calling out bad behaviour and that has to, again, happen from the top. It, it has to be part of the culture. And I think, and it ties in again with, with interviewing, doesn’t it? We still see it, we’re 2025 and we still see people being promoted to people leadership roles, who are good at making widgets. They’re good at making widgets, and so they’re promoted to this completely other role actually.

And there needs to be, yeah,  just more support in that interviewing process so that we’re not getting those, as you put it, Susan, I think, was it psychopaths in those

Susan: social psychopaths.

Amy: Social psychopaths. And on that joyous note, let’s move, shall we, to your top tips. thank you for sharing your thoughts, those who are joining us live on the call.

So some top tips from each of our panel members then. starting with you, Susan, Promote open communication and psychological safety. Tell us a little bit about that, just ever so briefly.

Susan: I think it’s just being honest and, say if you’re going to have psychological safety, then it’s got to be safe. So if you don’t mean it, don’t say it. and provide accessible mental health resources and support. So I would say. Take a leaf out of our book, give it to your people, don’t have it run through HR or a medical model, give it to the people and let them, develop  it, support it and spread it. Give the responsibility of developing the services, to the people in the organisation. You support, the development of wellbeing across the, organisation and so, there’s a collective responsibility, not just the senior people looking at it.

Amy: Yeah, and also to add in there the importance of it being confidential to reach out to the external support options that an organisation has in place, because when it has to go through HR that can cause issues.

Susan: We have an ability for people to be referred to occupational health, but we have the EAP, but we also have self referral to occupational health where people can come in complete confidence.

Amy: Yeah, perfect. Mark, reflect and accept what you see in the mirror. Tell us a bit about that.

Mark: I’ve come to see that my own personal relationship with confidence is quite complicated and complex. So, you know, do I put myself in a position of stretch? And then how does that make me feel  as an imposter in that position and so on. So I think these kinds of reflections, you need to understand about yourself, you need to understand about others, especially when they’re new in a role.

And, when you have that level of reflection and insight, then you can start to accept it. And that really does make a difference for how you feel about showing up to work. There’s both an organizational aspect of understanding that about their people, but there’s also a responsibility for the individual to really make the time to really, understand themselves and how they’re showing up at work.

Amy: Brilliant. And just briefly through make time for what you need during the working day.

Mark: Exercise is one of the themes that I called out earlier, and for me, that really helps. If I’m on a call, or a meeting that’s like a town hall or a big kind of Teams meeting or something like that, do you know what? I’ll quite happily exercise in the background, as long as I’m paying attention to the important messaging that’s on the screen.

But equally making time for  creative work, if that’s your thing, it could be standing at a whiteboard thinking through a problem, it could even be painting. Or if you’re working from home take time out to do some cleaning, whatever it is that helps people just to give a little bit of buffer from the pressures of the day to day work that helps them then come back and be more productive and happier.

Amy: Lovely. Thank you. And Jane, encourage employees to do self assessment exercises.

Jane: Yeah, so this is really about really delving into what are your strengths? What are your values? What are your interests? What kind of colleagues and in work environment works well for you? And what are some of your long term goals? And this is really useful to really pinpoint if something is off, and really work out, okay, am I optimising all of these?

And if there’s something wrong, what Is it one of these? And that helps you, I think, sometimes not throw the baby out with the bathwater, because actually you can analyse, actually, if I just change this, then actually things will be much better for me.

Amy: Wonderful. And finally, train managers to support employees in their career development.

Jane: This is a little bit what we talked about before, making sure that managers do have the support to have these conversations and then hopefully there will be other initiatives around there to help them develop their employees’ career.

So you can’t expect managers just to have the confidence to know what to say in these conversations, so really important to support them in having those conversations and, to be a coach and how to coach.

Amy: Absolutely. You’ve been absolutely wonderful. I am going to pass over the mantle to Angus to give you more formal thanks. Thanks so much.

Angus: Thank you. That was absolutely fantastic. It was inspirational from all of you. So thank you very much for coming on the Wellbeing Hour. It’s very interesting, at the root of this, it’s not complicated. It is about getting the basics right, it’s about openness, it’s about honesty, having  those difficult conversations, having the supportive conversations, and it’s about the skill set to do that. It’s personal and organisational responsibility, that came out from all of you, and the trust element of it is super important and the application of values, being strong. Bravery came across, again. Whether it’s the brave crab that comes out with its, claws or whether it’s the bravery to call out bad behaviour.

And I love that saying, look behind the eyes and think that somebody loves this person. How would I love this person? Fantastic. So thank you all very, very much. It’s a great honour to run the Wellbeing Hour at Headtorch. We always learn new things and it’s been a real honour to work with the three of you today.

So thank you very much.

Susan: Thank you.

Jane: Thank you for having us.

Angus: Pleasure. Okay, coming up on the Wellbeing Hour, we have Tara Ferguson. Tara  is here today as well and, her company Onward With You. She is formerly a people professional at Exscientia and also at PepsiCo. We’ve known Tara really for quite a long time now actually and we’re really looking forward to seeing her on the Wellbeing Hour.

She’s going to be talking about Cancer and Work, When your only choice is to move onward. That’s on the 27th of March, 12 o’clock, so join us for that. And, we also have dates for the diary. So, tomorrow, I am going to be running a taster event at the National Manufacturing Institute Scotland.

We’re going to be talking about building a mentally healthy culture. If you would like to come along to that, the link is on our website, you’ll be able to join it from there. Then on the 11th of March, myself and Amy are also running an event hosted by Scottish Engineering and that’s in Aberdeen and we’ll be talking about workplace mental health and wellbeing, It’s a No Brainer, so again, the link is on  our website, join it from there. 27th of March is Tara’s Wellbeing Hour and then on 15th of May, we have Geoff McDonald. Geoff, we’ve also known for a long time. He is former Global VP of HR at Unilever, he is now a global advocate and speaker for Workplace Mental Health, so join us for any or all of those if you like.

Also, we would love to hear from you, so get in touch with us, tell us what you’re doing in terms of workplace mental health. We have solutions for senior leaders, people managers, and direct and indirect staff. Thank you again for joining us, and that is it from the Wellbeing Hour.

Amy: Thank you, everyone. ​