The Wellbeing Hour #38 Your Comfort Zone Is Not Your Friend

Text transcript

Amy: So, welcome to the Headtorch Wellbeing Hour with me, Amy McDonald. Angus: And me, Angus Robinson, and we’ll introduce you to our guest, Adrienne Kelbie, in a few moments. And as you settle in, just a quick heads up that we are recording this, and you will be able to see it as a, or listen to it even, as a podcast on all the usual podcast channels. And please follow us on them, it does make a difference and we do appreciate it. At Headtorch, we work with organizations to create and sustain a mentally healthy culture. The Wellbeing Hour is a really important extension of our work. I’ll be back a bit later when we field some of your questions to our guest. Amy: And we look forward to hearing your thoughts and questions from those of you who are joining us live today. Before then, I’m going to be asking some of my own questions of Adrienne. Some questions including where did your nickname Captain come from? When transforming a culture, who do you want around the table? And you gave a speech at Women in Nuclear after being the Chief Executive at the Office for Nuclear Regulation for just twelve days. How did that go? So today’s session is called Your Comfort Zone is Not Your Friend, and for this conversation, we are super excited to have Adrienne Kelbie, CBE, Executive Coach, Board Advisor and Consultant with us here today. Adrienne, we’ll shortly hear more of your story, but before we go into, into that, you have a question that you want to share with the delegates friends with us here today and this is the question. What one uncomfortable thing will you do in the next week? So please as Adrienne and I go into conversation do add your thoughts to that in response to that question, which is now being put into the chat so do add your thoughts to that in the chat and we’ll come back to that a little later on. So, let me introduce, Adrienne, as I said, you’re, you’re a leadership coach, a non executive director, and a former Head of Office for Nuclear Regulation, and since 2021, you’ve coached dozens of leaders in companies including Siemens, BP, Dounreay Site Restoration, and Agena Group, improving their performance through meaningful conversations that focus on psychological safety, wellbeing and inclusion. Adrienne, you are a transformer, literally. You’ve worked your way up from Agency Temp PA to Chief Executive, and you’ve also transformed numerous organisations. You’ve led a local authority through financial crisis; you’ve established and modernised the Disclosure and Barring Service, and you transformed the Office for Nuclear Regulation into a multiple award winning organization. Holding four professional fellowships in Energy, Nuclear, Personal Development and Management, Adrienne’s excelled in Oxford University’s Leading Major Programmes. Not only that, but Adrienne was the first patron of Women in Nuclear. Adrienne, it’s an absolute delight to have you with us here today. Please do introduce yourself with your mystery object. Adrienne: Well, I feel that people are going to expect something really amazing after that introduction, so I’m not sure whether to apologise in advance, but here it is. This is one of the most important tools I have used in my life, I use in real life and in work life, and I want to show you it. This is it. This is the secret of my lack of success. This yellow highlighter has held me back for many, many years. I used to think it was my friend. I used it all the time until I introduced it to this one. This then brought balance to my life, and these are my mystery objects. Sorry, Amy, I brought two, not one. And I’m slightly playful here, but, you know, I think we all like to edit. And just as you’ve done, you’ve shown the highlight reel, I guess, of some of my successes, but what you’ve not done is show the outtakes of all of the falls on the face, punches in the ear and general missteps along the way. And unfortunately, I find that our brains are absolute velcro when it comes to mistakes, errors, things that might go wrong. We go through our 360 degree appraisals, we go through our management reports and we highlight All the things that need to be fixed, and all the things that are wrong. Or is that just me? I’m not sure. Stick it, it’s just you in the chat box if it’s just me, and stick it, it’s me too if it’s you. But here it is, this is the thing. And it’s really important because I want things to be great. I’ve always wanted to do well. I was raised to work to good standards, to give my best to people. My dad always said, do your best. If it’s less than that, it’s not enough, and if somebody needs more than that, then it’s too much. However, I realised that after the third go of sobbing on the sofa when I’d read my 360 degree really highlighted that maybe this wasn’t a balanced way of working and it was getting in my own way of stretch and change. So I found my new friend that works alongside, the orange highlighter, and I started then to highlight the things that were positive and noticing the contrast, noticing very much the difference in amount of yellow and orange really helped me. And I like to think that being able to see balance has allowed me to have the courage to do things that perhaps before, if I only looked at the yellow highlighting, I wouldn’t have done. So, so my mystery weapons, today are contrast. Velcro for criticism, Teflon for praise. So make sure you’re getting really good balanced data to help you be well and stretch. Amy: Nice. Wow. Thank you for that, Adrienne, absolutely amazing. So we’re going to dive now into our conversation focusing on Adrienne and why her mantra is really your comfort zone is not your friend. And as I said earlier, do put your thoughts and comments into the chat and we’ll come back to those a little later on. So, so, so, so Velcro, as well as Teflon. How do you encourage others to, to see the, to be the Teflon in their lives? Adrienne: I, I think as a leader and as a leadership coach to a degree, you know, our job is to create the conditions for everyone else to succeed. We serve others who go on to do amazing things. And I’ve noticed over my career that a lot of leaders avoid feedback altogether, which I think is the worst. You know, we don’t actually say the thing that could be better because we don’t want to offend. We’re fearful of the rejection that might come by saying, hadn’t thought about, or when you do this that has an unintended impact. We’re fearful of our relationship somehow being tarnished by that and therefore we don’t offer that person the opportunity to have a different perspective that could help them grow. The other thing leaders might do is just give the negative feedback. We catch up, there’s so much to do and it’s a kind of, performance based exception meeting we have, rather than a true one to one which is focused on development, and therefore all we hear are the criticism. Yeah, it was a great report but….. Well you know, I liked your presentation, what we need to do is….., and therefore you get this balance that really what you’re hearing more are the things that need to improve. And of course, bosses are time poor, so they may be doing that in a way to be as helpful as possible, but unless you can anchor the things that are positives, it can feel very unbalanced, and you can spend more time worrying about the things you got wrong than building on the things you got right. So I’m in big favour of making sure that there is balance and drawing people to doing their own analysis, using your own highlighter pens. In some ways, needing less from others and more about your own self criticism and seeking feedback. Thank you, for those that only say it’s great. Thanks, I know it was great. What could I do that would make it 1 percent better? Or, I hear that you didn’t like that, that, and that about it. What was it that did work? So, find your inner orange and yellow highlighters and start to give yourself feedback and ask others for it too. I think that’s really important in growth. Amy: Yeah, it’s almost like actually when you’re giving feedback, you need to, it’s about tipping the balance on the positive, isn’t it? Because it’s linked to our fight or flight response, right? So we’re much more likely to cling on to the negative that we, you know, we hear that rings in our ears rather than, oh yeah, they said some nice stuff as well. We go, oh, they said this stuff. So is that what it’s about? Do you think actually, it needs more orange and less yellow? Adrienne: I don’t think it’s necessarily less yellow, I’m a big believer that we should be daring people to be as, as good as they possibly can be. And that’s not about narrowing their opportunity for constructive feedback. But I do think it’s dependent on trust. I think if you have a relationship with somebody where they truly trust that you have their best interests at heart, they can take a lot of criticism and not be damaged by it. Whereas if you have a relationship that is flaky or seen to be serving your own needs or doesn’t feel authentic and truthful to them, then not much good will get in at all. And yes, that fight or flight will be triggered. So I think it’s very much choosing to nourish relationships so that people know when you give them, at times, some really difficult feedback, that it is absolutely in their interest you’re doing it. You’re not doing it to put them down, you’re doing it to build them up. But that is a two way street in relationship, which is why I think asking for feedback and creating that environment where it becomes normal is a very good thing. I do know that it’s, in terms of balance, we need kind of three positive, compliments, if you like, or positive things in order to take one negative thing as neutral. I would err on the side of caution and make it five to one. It’s a nice ranked number. If you’re going to be having a performance or group of conversations with people, give them five positives to one thing that can be changed. Amy: Yeah. And that in and of itself helps us, doesn’t it, to move out of that comfort zone, because as you quite rightly say, you know, a comfort zone is not our friend, we’re not growing, are we if we’re just stuck there? So, Adrienne, let me take you back, way back in time when it all began. You started out as a temp. What kind of jobs were you asking for when you were a temp? Adrienne: Well, I was asking for whatever would pay me the most. At the hourly rate, it was about £5 an hour at the time. I am that old, but it did, you know, I wanted, it was just jobs that would pay. What I got was actually really interesting jobs on the whole, so I was very, very lucky. but I, I mean, I did stuff. I was a temp in digital deck, as it was then, a big computer company’s HR department, one of the most interesting jobs I’ve done, even to this day. I was a database clerk. Gosh, it’s really boring, and my typing wasn’t that fast and accurate at the time, so that was tough. I was a relief secretary in Britoil, as it was merging with BP, so what an interesting time to be, essentially, wallpaper in staffing terms, but watching what goes on when a big deal is being struck, and as a relief secretary, I got a new boss pretty much every week, so it was constant change of systems and names and cultures and ways of doing things, so I look back with huge fondness on my time as a Kelly Temp. It was by choice, it wasn’t that I couldn’t get another job. I just wanted to try different things and that’s, that’s what allowed me to do it and paid for my car loan. Amy: Yeah. As a temp, what do you think you were learning most there? Adrienne: Culture. What it looked like I was learning was logins and, you know, video calls. They were a big deal then, there wasn’t a lot of that about, you know, learning how to do that. It looked like the lesson plan. But I think when you are in a position that people talk, almost as if you’re not there, because you’re so junior. Yeah, I’m so junior, I’m sitting in a room, we’ve got big bosses talking about significant confidential deals and details or performance issues or changes that are coming, transformations that the organisations want to go through, and I just got to listen in, and actually in a couple of cases I felt able to ask questions and people were kind enough to answer me, but I really, I, I see those years as a bit of a masterclass in culture, how things really got done, not what was given to you in the brochure. Amy: Yeah, in a way, it’s kind of almost a privileged position to be able to observe all of that, but not have to be in a position to influence it hugely, soaking it up, right? Adrienne: Just to witness it. Amy: yeah. But you moved to National Lottery Scotland. When you started off there, what was your role there? Adrienne: Well I was so lucky, by now I’d been a trainer and a training coordinator and started dealing with European money and in that job I’d applied for a lottery grant, 1995, just as the National Lottery Charities Board came out. Can you believe the lottery’s that old in the UK? And, I didn’t get it. We didn’t get the money. My, my management committee, I was, director at an employment and training, operation at that point, and we didn’t get it. and I couldn’t tell them. I couldn’t tell them why. And I felt rubbish. You know, we wanted that money, we wanted to do good stuff with it, and it really hurt. So, I actually went to some conferences about it and I heckled the Director at the time, John Rafferty, I heckled him about the lack of feedback and he kind of batted me off and I heckled him again until I was told to sit down. So, I thought I’d apply for a job and go and fix it. And John was actually courageous enough to hire me, despite remembering me heckling him in the crowd and I went in as operations manager and on day one I pulled my file to see why we hadn’t got the money and we hadn’t done anything wrong. We just didn’t, it was just too much. There was something like 15 to one applications to success stories. So you can imagine I made a phone call back to the old organisation to tell them that they hadn’t done anything wrong. but in stewardship of about 35 million a year from the Scotland team,I did make it a mantra to make things more transparent and I was lucky because actually John wanted to do as well. So we, as well as giving money to community groups, you know, from a few hundred pounds to Mums and Tods groups or, you know, boys basketball, facilities right up to multi million pound, projects, you know, community buildings. We peppered the entire Scotland, geography with community halls, for Scouts and other things,, and I’m very proud of the time I spent there. And then I moved on to a UK job, started fiddling with international grants, strategic grants as we called them as well, and the England budget. And again, trying to make the whole organization be more community and user centric so that what we did was more transparent, was easier to get and made a bigger impact. Because giving money away sounds easy, I know that, but how hard can it be? You know, giving it away is the pleasant part, as long as nobody defrauds you. But when you have to say no to roughly 9 out of 10 people coming to you for money, it’s a really serious business and I wanted to do it as well as we possibly could. Amy: So you really made a huge transformation there, didn’t you, by creating that,need to give feedback to those who didn’t receive the money, right? Adrienne: I think we did make a big impact and it kind of fed across to other organisations, you know, the other grant making trusts that we were kind of, cadres with began to make changes as well. Other lotteries in other parts of the world began to look at what we did in the UK. So, you know, it had a bit of a rolling effect, which I’m really proud of. And I think it comes back to me about that, it comes back to what I started. You know, if you don’t even know what colour it is, then how do you address it? And the level of effort people put into these things as teams usually. You know, whole committees are involved in this, many, many users. It didn’t feel, it didn’t feel right to me. And I think the fear of us getting it wrong, what will happen if it takes up all their resources? What happens if somebody sues us? What happens if it turns out we’ve made a mistake? None of those were good enough reasons not to do it, in my view, and in John’s view, so we were forced. Amy: I was gonna say, so you transformed it, but you did it as a team, right? So you had to bring people with you on that journey. How easy was that to to make that change as a team? Adrienne: Well, I think at first quite a few people thought we were completely nuts.You know, nobody does this, it’s not necessary, and as I say, there were legitimate concerns. How much of your budget are you going to spend doing this? Because you won’t then give that to community groups. So there was a real, need to, for it to be pragmatic. But I also saw an opportunity for us to reduce the number of applications that weren’t going to come to us because people would self select. So, you know, we tried a degree of logic, but fundamentally, you know, the way we got it through was because our hearts were very much in helping communities improve. We were in helping them have the impact that they wanted, and so we saw this as an extension of the ability to do it. For the bigger grants we had conversations, for the smaller grants it was written feedback. But we saw that actually as part of building the infrastructure and part of building the capability. And therefore, you know, when we started to frame it like that, rather than an administrative burden, we gave it purpose. Actually, our assessors and our board were very much supportive of it. Slightly concerned we might screw it up, but very supportive of it, and the team did a great job. Amy: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. and so that was where you gained the nickname of Captain, wasn’t it? Where did that come from? Adrienne: It is, and I was in Spain, I was in Spain at John Rafferty’s 70th party, I hadn’t seen him in about 15 years, and his 70th birthday party, I went to speak, and he bloody well introduced me as Captain. So yeah, it stuck among some of the team there. It’s not, I can’t fly a plane, it’s not that, although we did sit in a lot of planes up and down the country at that point. It came because the corporate office’s risk appetite was a bit different to ours in the Scotland team. So when we wanted to do something, but the corporate office thought it was a bit too risky and a bit too flaky, we called it a pilot, and we ran a lot of pilots, so Captain was the nickname, that came. I never got a hat or anything, I think now I should have got a hat, but Captain came from, let’s try it, and if it goes horribly wrong, it’s on me, and it’s just that stupid Scotland office, but I’ll tell you, none of them went horribly wrong, so, so we didn’t crash any of our metaphoric planes while we were flying. That’s where Captain comes from, Queen of the Pilots. Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Well, also it’s about that small step, isn’t it? You know, your comfort zone is not your friend. It’s taking that small step that enables you to learn, enables everybody to learn, doesn’t it? To then adapt and, if need be, and shift forward on a bigger scale, right? Yeah. Amazing. So you moved on to Disclosure and, Barring service, and you were the Chief Exec and you did numerous things, for example, reducing criminal record times, and, you know, safeguarding was a hot topic, wasn’t it? How did you influence culture there? Adrienne: DBS was an interesting organization because it was actually two, that really didn’t, didn’t see a great connection, I think, in many ways. There was one organization over in Darlington in the North East of the country, the Independent Safeguarding Authority, as it was. Very considered, often long, detailed casework that led to barring people from working in, protective professions with, you know, children and vulnerable adults. And we had the Criminal Records Bureau, as it was in Liverpool, huge volumes, you know, 4 million checks a year. Fast, fast is what people wanted. Nobody wants to be waiting for the criminal record check because it’s stopping you getting a job. Very systematized and working through police forces across the country. So, you know, there wasn’t, to be honest, any inherent, feeling of merger and I came in, to help, you know, both come together. I think, again, it was back to a purpose, similar to, in Lottery, is there a job to give money away or is it to build capability in a sector to help it have more impact? And grant making is just one of the ways we do it. For disclosure and barring, it was very much about safeguarding. Raising the profile, helping people understand why these irritating checks were needed. Encouraging people to make referrals to barring, when they were perhaps fearful of the reprisals or if their name would become public. So, you know, I saw that actually as being entirely safeguarding focused, which of course was the reason the merger was mooted by the boards and the government. But, you know, little did I know as well as a merger job and a culture job that the UK safeguarding climate would explode. And not in a positive way. We had the Jimmy Savile, scandal up, I don’t know if anybody here will remember, Panorama documentaries on Winterbourne, and others, you know, really horrific abuse of vulnerable adults in social care, facilities. So it went from being probably a kind of systems and organizational leadership job to being slightly more politicized and much more in the public eye than I was used to. So, you know, how do you build a culture? I think the same way you build any good culture, you enrol people in, in the purpose. We brought synergies where they were relevant, but also respecting the previous cultures and the fact that each legacy organization had a very different skill set. So it wasn’t about trying to make it all the same, it was respecting what was already solid, but building on that with what could be better. You know, the usual common database systems, IT, but nobody gets up in the morning to work a new IT system, do they? They get up because they want to make a difference. And I think by, you know, better examples of when each part of the organisation played its role in safeguarding the UK and having more of a feel for the cases, not just the KPIs, I think that made a big difference there. But again, another world class team, in what it does, and another one that other parts of the world came to look at about how we did things. And if you have had a criminal record check, now called a Disclosure and Barring check, I should correct myself. If you have had an DBS check recently, like I have, you might even have had it in less than 24 hours, and it was about a 6 to 7 week minimum when we started, so that was pretty good. Amy: Yeah. massive change there. Amazing. And when you’re transforming a culture, who do you want then around the table? What were the values I suppose that you want around the table? Adrienne: I want everybody around the table You know, I want everybody with their orange highlighter looking at what will go well, but I also want everybody with their yellow highlighter looking at what won’t go well and what’s difficult. I don’t really want anybody with one colour or other because it becomes unbalanced, but, you know, I think one of the hardest things I had to learn was that I’m not going to get everybody round the table with any pen. They might have a red one or a dart that they’re throwing at us, I don’t know. And I really find that difficult, and I find that it felt like fairer to me if I couldn’t persuade, enrol, influence everybody in the early days. And I recognize it’s okay. It’s not a me thing, it just is a difference of views and we, part company, but I think, you know, who does anyone want round the table? Whether you’re a chief exec, you’re an ops manager, you’re a temp pa, you want people around the table who are prepared to give. Give their energy, give their opinion, give their insight about what can be. Not what is. We know what is, but we want to know what can be and how we get there. Amy: Yeah. And that in and of itself, though, you know, going back to what you’re saying about trust, it’s about creating that trusting atmosphere, isn’t it? Those trusted relationships where anybody, whether they are the temp PA or Yeah, the Chief Exec, they equally feel able to contribute around that table. Adrienne: I agree, and I don’t think it’s as difficult as people make out to value others. You know, it starts with valuing, it starts with understanding, it starts with appreciating what that individual brings. and encouraging. Just like you would a little seedling plant. You know, you can’t eat an apple tree when you grow the seed, you have to be a bit patient. And it’s the same with people. You have to allow them to grow before they really begin to bear fruit. But if you’re not watering them all the way along, if you wait for them to be that giant tree that you can eat the fruit from, they’ve died on the way. You have to nurture, first as a leader, before you can take. Amy: Yeah, definitely. So you moved on to the Office for Nuclear Regulations. I mean, I just look at your CV, Adrienne, and go what? So what? How did you even begin to, you know, get your head around a completely new industry? Adrienne: I, I loved that job. I really did. I remember going in thinking….., People told me, you are not suited to working in a regulator at all. My friends told me, a head-hunter who’d put me into a different job phoned me up and said, are you really going to go for that? Are you really going to take that job? So it was a bit like, whoa, gosh, I think the only ones that didn’t say that were my mum and dad. They’ve always supported me. Amy: Why did people think regulatory wasn’t, regulatory body wasn’t for you? Adrienne: They thought it would be boring. They thought it would be really slow. They thought that I’d be stuck behind a desk. In fact, I thought I might be behind a desk a lot more than I was, but I wasn’t and we weren’t. We were really interesting and we wanted to change and we wanted to modernize how we did things, but the organization had had a hard time. It had separated from, the opposite of a merger this time, it had separated, from Health and Safety Exec a few years before and to be honest, hadn’t had the best time of it, maybe not the best planned exit. So people were quite tired, quite sceptical, and really, you know, I think looking for a better version of the future when I joined, so in all honesty, I was on the whole made to feel very welcome, and we had people who are fantastic about nuclear. So I just want to reassure everybody, I was Chief Executive Office for Nuclear Regulation, I did not make nuclear decisions, for that I am wholly unqualified. There’s hundreds of folk who know far more about that than me, and they got to do that with a chief nuclear inspector, so I want to make that really clear. But I think getting out of the comfort zone for me was, I didn’t know a soul, so there was no stakeholder basis for me to fall back on. There’s no real common sense, I didn’t really even know how electricity got produced. It’s still magical to me, but, you know, starting from absolute scratch with an organisation that had some difficulties was definitely a challenge. But again, you know, same mantra for me. I asked I remember the first couple of weeks I spent just meeting the teams and asking them what they wanted from me, and they didn’t hold back. Hundreds of things were asked for, so I definitely got my agenda set by the teams in the first couple of years. I think technical, engineering based cultures, which is where I do a lot of the coaching work now, can be quite sticky because they tend to work in a very task focused way. So thinking about the environment you create and the growth agenda for an organisation as a body of people is a little bit different for them. but it, It was hard, you know, I worked hard, my ears hurt, I was going through, you know, the worst years of my life in terms of, early menopause at the time, so I’ll be honest, you know, concentration was difficult sometimes. So I had the kind of health background thing going on that nobody, I hope nobody would have known about at the time, possibly just thought I had the occasional outburst, which made me feel terrible. You know, when you have those days, you’re not slept for five days and you have a sharp word and you know you shouldn’t have. So, you know, again, I look back on that and think people were forgiving of that because I think my intent was really clear. I didn’t have a hidden agenda, I just genuinely wanted this organisation to be tall, proud, a world leader, and to be winning the awards for its people, not just its regulation, and it went on to do that, and still is. Amy: Yeah, absolutely amazing. And of course now, just touching on the, you know, your comment there about menopause, of course, it’s talked about a lot more today, thank goodness, so yeah, hopefully more and more organizations are offering, the support that’s needed and the ability for women to talk about it, well, for everybody to talk about it, quite frankly. Adrienne: Well, it was different, because usually when I joined the meetings, everybody talks about the football and rugby, so I think it was a bit of a shock, because I had mainly male colleagues, in parts, so I think it was a bit of a shock, but hopefully it made it a bit easier for them to maybe think about their, what their wives or their sisters or whoever might be going through as well, it felt slightly less taboo, but not everybody will share that. For me, it was just, it was something that was going on for me and, every now and again. You know, Amy: somebody put a fan on, please. It’s fairly obvious, isn’t it? It’s best to just explain what’s going on, I think. yeah. But sometimes not all that easy. So, you know, change can be hard, whether that’s in our bodies or within organisations. What do you think you were doing that was working well in terms of enabling people to support their own mental health through these changes? Adrienne: I think the resilience to have, you know, robust, productive conversations and to see themselves as whole people. To be clear, I don’t think that it’s happened with everyone, but I think most people, when they have balance and self worth, are able to deal with significant change. You know, if you feel that you’re on shaky ground now, why on earth would you want to move another step? You know, there’s a bit about having enough confidence and value in where you are and how you’re dealing with things to feel able that you can make the next step. And I think where people are struggling, instead of shying away from it, just to notice it, to bear witness without judgment. Eleanor, You’re saying yes to this, but your physiology looks to me like you’re saying no. What’s going on? You know, David, you know, I see you nodding at this, but I know you’ve had some concerns in the past. If I really pushed you, what are the concerns that are still here? You know, I think it’s looking and really understanding people and just inquiring into the reality of their state. But I think it’s also about being crystal clear about the direction. What somebody doesn’t want is a leader who isn’t clear about whether I’m considering a change or I’ve decided on a change. And being clear that we have enrolled, we’ve considered, we’ve consulted, this is where we are going, we’re now about how, not if, is important. And again, I hear a lot of conversations where it’s not clear to me whether it’s still being discussed because in the face of resistance, it’s reopened again. So people never really commit to something that just keeps getting reopened. So I think that’s another, you know, another element. Amy: Yeah, what’s shouting out to me is again, just that, that sense of purpose that’s so important, the clarity of that, but also just going back to what you said right at the beginning of the conversation about, you know, being a temp and really observing the culture and really observing what’s going on. And it sounds like, you know, as a, as you’ve, as you advance through organisations, it’s about using that tool, but naming it, isn’t it? I’m seeing this. We often talk about, you know, when we’re talking about spotting signs of ill health, we often talk about look for the incongruencies, you know, look for where there’s a mismatch, be specific, state it, and it sounds exactly like what you’re doing. Adrienne: Amy, I completely agree. If somebody’s saying one thing and looking at another, don’t believe what they’re saying. You know, the body’s a lot quicker and sneakier than the logic brain, isn’t it? So it’s going to tell. But I think it’s important to do it in a way that doesn’t assume, you know, what’s going on. You know, I’ve had some conversations where I have just been completely surprised by what’s actually going on. And I think if I’d led with, you look like you’re chewing wasps, clearly you don’t like this. Because let’s face it, I have done that, and again, I don’t think so anymore. But when you lead with it, you don’t give people any room to go for it, rather than just saying, you know, it looks to me like you’re upset, Amy: yeah, Adrienne: Not even asking a question. Amy: just let them respond to that, Adrienne: I think actually you touched on something there in transformation. We imagine that it’s all about what we do as leaders. Sometimes it’s about what we don’t do. Sometimes it’s the pauses. Sometimes it’s the not responding to every single thing and having the discernment to know what we need to get into and what we don’t. and it’s recognizing people’s pace, which is really different even across a small team and certainly across a large organization. So, you know, knowing when not to act. Maybe when something’s hurtful or we overhear something and we want to jump on it, you know, actually doesn’t matter and doesn’t matter now. That can also be another good litmus, you know, check to what you get into because there’s never enough time in the day to do everything that our brain thinks we should. Amy: Good point, absolutely. One last question before Angus joins us and we’ll have a look at some of the comments that people have been putting in the chat. Thanks very much. If you haven’t already and you’ve got a question or a comment, please do throw them in the chat and we’ll pick them up shortly. Just this one last question, Adrienne, before we do that. So you gave a speech at Women in Nuclear, that actually Angus and I were privileged to be delivering at their conference earlier this year, and you gave a speech there after being the Chief Exec at the Office for Nuclear Regulations for just 12 days. How did that go? Adrienne: It went really well. Amy: Yay! I knew it would! Adrienne: I loved it. I loved it. And thankfully so did nearly everybody else, I think, if I recall in the evaluations. I got the ask before I started. I was still at DBS. and they asked me to come, Miranda Kershaw, I actually was the president of WiN at the time and asked me to come, and I remember thinking, that’s quite early, I haven’t even met any other stakeholders there, and I’ll be honest, the big yellow pen was giving It’s going to be a nightmare, you’re going to end up at Nuclear, you don’t know what any of these words are going to ask you are, don’t be ridiculous, but the orange pen is going, oh, look at that lovely opportunity, all those people that want maybe to hear from you and, you know, maybe they’re not so scary. Maybe you could go and find stuff out in the breaks and you can listen in to the rest of it. So I went for the free ticket and I came away with a fantastic network that to this day continues to give. But I wasn’t speaking about nuclear. I was speaking about being a person in nuclear, and there are hundreds of thousands of people who can do that. I was speaking about my slightly eclectic journey and why I felt that nuclear could be a place for more women, when it’s very much, it’s a charity that aims to improve gender balance in the nuclear sector across the globe.and it was a privilege to not only speak for them, but to then join them as President and, you know, be speaking about gender diversity as part of my work for ONR, because I don’t think it’s a separate thing. I don’t think it’s a side dish. I think cognitive and gender and race, you know, all of our, teams should have as much diversity of thinking as possible in them. And when you’re in a high hazard industry that really has, the potential to make life changing decisions, then you’d better have as much diversity in them as you can. And that was my positioning on it. So honestly, why would I not go? Amy: Definitely. Great. Angus, you have been sifting through some of the comments, questions, thoughts. Angus: Yeah, I,I actually have a question of my own to ask you first, Adrienne: Oh, that’s rude! Angus: it is rude, I’m going to do it. So, your comments there just lead on very nicely to it. There is a big drive to attract and retain women in the nuclear industry. Yeah. So what do you say to women who are thinking about this as a career or are in the industry at the moment? Adrienne: Nuclear is an incredibly varied business. There’s everything in it from temps like me back in the day. maybe not temps tends to be security cleared, but, you know, junior roles in, in admin, in, in all sorts of areas, you’ve got all of the corporate functions that you have in any organisation, they are businesses, and you’ve got huge technical teams in many different areas. That’s just what the job is, though. You know, let’s look at the purpose. Do you want to be part of a sector that is, in my strong opinion, the solution or one of the solutions to climate change? Do you want to be part of a generation that helps new nuclear, in particular, generate affordable electricity? You know, we’re in 2024 and we’re still talking about people with fuel poverty in the UK. So we need affordable, resilient, and in my view, homegrown electricity. I don’t see that as a political statement, it’s just how I feel about it. But I think if you want to come in, I understand it, it’s about 21 percent female at the minute. My organisation’s, the one that I chaired just now, the wonderful Nuclear Waste Services, is nearer half and half, in several of the tiers, my boards are all half and half. I haven’t done that through targets, I’ve done that through sensible recruitment. So, if you want to be in, then go for it. You will have potentially a lifelong career of interesting work, varied tasks, and incredibly clever and committed people. But it’s not easy. The nuclear sector has far more to do to be as inclusive as it needs to be to get the best out of everyone, and I don’t just mean women. So, you know, be ready to help it improve. Don’t expect it to be perfect. Be ready to contribute. Be ready to say your piece and be constructive. And Join Women in Nuclear. It’s a fantastic network and it’s not just for women. Amy: Right. Angus: Thank you. Amy: Rianne Bogue, great to see you here. Rianne says, I love hearing about your squiggly journey, Adrienne. I remember you being a keynote speaker at a work event for us one year and you invited volunteers to get up on stage, but wouldn’t say why you wanted them. The whole room stayed silent until you got two volunteers, took a selfie and said, the whole point was taking calculated risks. It sticks with me all the time now. Adrienne: I know what one that was. It was a black, it was a really strange stage. It was completely black. Yeah. It was dark in fairness. first Amy: What was the reaction when, when you told people that after they got up on the stage? Adrienne: Relief, I think, was the absolute first reaction, but as a serious point . But it’s a serious point. If somebody in A public venue, who’s there as a keynote speaker, says, I’d like some volunteers to come up on the stage, honestly, are you actually going to be murdered? No. Is anything terrible actually gonna happen? It’s highly unlikely, and if there is, you step off the stage. I’m sure a big burly security person would’ve taken me off if I’d, you know, whipped out, a machine gun. So there’s a real sense here of when you have an opportunity to step out your comfort zone, you know, like check, check your risk assessment. So we had a selfie, just for fun to prove the point that only two folk would get up outta the audience to do that Amy: When have you found it, the question for me, Adrienne, when have you found it difficult to move out of your comfort zone? Adrienne: Constantly. Absolutely, constantly, you know, we all have them and. I mean, the problem with that comfort zone is it’s like a gorgeous, warm, heavy blanket. You know, you’re under it, it’s so lovely, and out there it’s cold or hot or wet. Yeah, and I think we can only deal with so many changes at once, as you said earlier and you know, I think we do need downtime and we need easy time. What I’m challenging is, if it’s always easy time, will you get out of it? Me, I should be doing a new website by now. I don’t like doing content. I find it really difficult. I don’t have a team to bounce things off the way I used to, and I have a ton of videos that I want to do. I’ve got a, well, I think it’s maybe a great idea for and I haven’t started them yet, so I’m under my, I’m under my media comfort blanket at the moment, but I know I’ll get out, because I’m beginning to find it really unbearably hot and heavy, and I’ve been here, I’ve been here too long, and I need to start, even if it’s horrible, I need to start in order to get good. So that’s one of my comfort blankets at the moment, which is literally you know, suffocating me. Amy: yeah, it’s that we talk about actually, if you’re feeling down about something, it’s actually a call to action, isn’t it? So our emotions are all a call to action. So that feeling, when the feeling down feels too much, that’s actually, that’s when you shift, even though you might have been under that blanket for some time Adrienne: Yeah. Angus: We’ve got a nice comment here from Amanda Way. She’s saying that I’m finding it harder to step out of my comfort zone as I’m perimenopausal. It’s mind blowing how much this does change you. what would you say there? Adrienne: Be kind to yourself. you know, if you had a broken leg, I wouldn’t expect you to run a marathon, even if you could last week. I think what’s really difficult about menopause, you know, I do see it almost like a hidden disability. and for many people, we find it easier to look at something which is an, you know, an injury, and be sympathetic to it. I think the more I’ve understood about this as well as it’s so varied from person to person. My practical advice is, and I don’t know what your stance on this is, Amanda, but be as open with it as you can. You know, tell folk what’s going on. If you’ve got a menopause program at work, they can be really helpful. But I think, for me, the, the kind of ups and downs in energy were what really got me, because I’ve always been super energetic. That, that, that got me. And as I say, the, at times, the mood swings, which I hated. So, you know, I just, I felt it was better to tell people when I hadn’t been myself. I don’t mean it was an arrogant curse, but just to do it. Amanda, your hand’s up. Hi. Amanda: Hi, by the way, I haven’t, in peri I haven’t forgot to put my top on, it’s just, it’s just the best top because it’s hot. it’s hot and sunny, exactly. Do you know what the problem is? I can’t explain it to people because I barely understand it myself and with all the brain fog and stuff, I’ve noticed I can’t string a sentence together in a coherent fashion the way I used to, so I’m trying to tell people and I’m going and I’m getting stuttery and then I’m going, what was I saying again? And I’ve never felt so impaired by my own self, and I just didn’t think it was going to be like this, and I do feel like people would be more accepting if my head was hanging off, or you know, if I had something that they could see. And it’s still like, well, I mean, it’s just menopause, just a hot flush, you know, she’s losing her temper again, it’s very much joking, but what I found is I’m so fearful of everything, whereas I used to be quite gung ho a bit, let’s give it a go, and then I’m like, oh well, no, that might happen, and how will I feel if that happens, and then I’ll overthink it for about two days until somebody else comes up with the exact same idea, and I’m sitting going, oh, what’s my idea, yeah, I know it’s difficult, Adrienne: This one gets more powerful doesn’t it? Drop me a message after this. I’m on LinkedIn, you’ll see. Drop me a wee message. I’ll put you in touch with Jill Bradley. who’s one of our menopause champions at Nuclear Waste Services. She’s phenomenal. We’ve designed all sorts of, in fact, Nuclear Decommission Authority, under which we work, has won some awards around our menopause work. So, I’ll get in touch with them and see what we can do. I know it’s rubbish. It will get better, but it might be a long time, so figuring out exactly what you want to do about it now is a good way, but you have my heartfelt sympathy. Amy: And mine. And mine too, Amanda. It’s about finding what works for you. So thanks for that offer of support from you, Adrienne. It is always worth seeking support if you need it. Of course, menopause can, you know, severely impact our mental health, our mental wellbeing, our ability to show up as our best selves. Let’s move on to hear about your top tips. Adrienne, so if you just want to talk us through. Your first one here, frame every conversation as an opportunity to grow. Adrienne: Yeah, I think, you know, really good leadership. Sometimes when we care about people, we sort of think that we should keep them safe. We become a bit paternalistic. My view is that’s not great leadership. Great leadership is getting everybody to be their biggest, best, boldest selves. And so, you know, if you’re a leader, literally every single conversation can be an opportunity to help your colleagues and yourself grow. And it’s bringing in just a couple of seconds habits, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. What have you taken from this conversation? You know, a single sentence at the end of a regular one to one. Up in the bigger things, it is about really perceiving conversations as being growth vehicles. Future focus, don’t be focusing on the past, you can’t change that. Hold people in the here and now and point them forward and do the same for yourself. So for me it really is about just recognising that you want to take every opportunity to learn, get insights and try something. That’s what that first one is. The wellbeing. I ask a bit of a trick question with people sometimes. I say, if you had a hundred percent, how much should be caring for people and how much should be doing? So caring, making sure they’re okay. You know, keep them calm, keep them safe, daring, whoa, let’s go do a pilot. And people might go, maybe 60, 60, 40, maybe 20, 80, and I go, no! It’s a trick question. It’s 100 and 100. It is not, these are not two ends of the spectrum. These are two different axes. Be 100 percent of both with people. Establish the trust. Absolutely care for them, but dare them every single time you can to be better, to do more, to try something. Amy: Wonderful. I love that. And finally, say yes to every opportunity. Adrienne: So I, I did this in COVID. I’ll be honest, a couple of the things I suggested didn’t work out quite so well. but there were so few opportunities in COVID, I felt really compelled to try everything I possibly could. I would just like to maybe suggest this. For the next week, or month if you’re really up for it, say yes to everything that you physically can and notice the things that you say no to or that you almost don’t even acknowledge. Put on your hi viz lamps, your zoom lenses, and look for opportunities. And just notice over that period what you’re saying yes and what you’re saying no to. And turning down and be really honest with yourself about why. You will find more opportunities to grow and you will find more opportunities to care and dare and you’ll probably try something that you thought you wouldn’t before. So, that, those are my three top tips on this. Amy: Wow. What have you said yes to recently that’s brought you opportunity? Adrienne: I said yes to going up to Canada to do a keynote speech about six weeks ago, even though I don’t really do keynotes these days, and it’s very awkward to get just north of Winnipeg to do that from here. And I also said yes to my beautiful husband coming with me. When I always thought he’ll sit at the back thinking, she’s rubbish, like, well, I can’t believe she makes a living out of this, so, so I said yes to two things. Russ would testify that I made him fight for it, but we turned it into a lovely weekend in Toronto, and then went up to do the job, and I, In the moment, and coming off it, I was really glad I did, but that was me. I was back in the, oh, people don’t like it, I don’t do it anymore, I’m not sharp enough, it’s lots of work, it’s a big flight. Shut up, Adrienne, get on with it, it’s fabulous. So that’s what I did. Amy: Great. So you chucked out the yellow pen brought in the in the orange Adrienne: I chucked out the yellow pen. Amy: We love that. Okay, A few rapid fire questions for you, Adrienne. And so here we go. What does vulnerability mean to you? Adrienne: Being prepared to tell everybody else you’re not okay, and inviting them to tell you the same, and recognising vulnerability is actually a strength. Because if people know it’s okay not to be okay, then they will know that it’s okay to be okay, they don’t have to pretend one or the other. Amy: Great. What little thing do you notice? Zoom into celebrate every day. Adrienne: Oh, I don’t know, that’s a really hard one. What do I notice? Well, I tend to notice that I’m getting a better cook and I haven’t poisoned Russ. So that’s a little thing that is, seems quite important to me because I do the cooking at the minute. And on a work basis, you know, I think I notice that I’m getting stronger, I think I, I notice that the more I do stuff, the better I get at it, which is what we’re all doing in life, isn’t it? Amy: Great. What message would you give your younger self? Adrienne: Stop worrying what everybody thinks. It doesn’t actually matter if you like it or not, because You’ll be an adult soon. Amy: Lovely. Adrienne: I moved schools a lot. it was a bit odd. but I think that kind of, I spent too long worrying what other people think. And now I do care what people think, I’m not saying you should be a git, but it isn’t the worrying that motivates me. It’s the doing that they might think it’s a positive interaction that motivates me rather than the fear that it won’t be. Amy: Lovely. And what message would your younger self give you? Adrienne: How the heck did you manage all that? Amy: Brilliant. And the final question, what do you say to leaders that only use plasters give lip service to workplace mental health? Adrienne: You better hope that you never need mental health help because when you need it, it will be there. Amy: Thank you, Adrienne. I’m going to pass over to Angus now, who will give you lots of thanks. Angus: Adrienne, that was fantastic. Thank you very much. I love what you say and it’s clear you are a visionary leader and that comes across loud and clear in the way you look at the world and the language you use and your energy as well. You talk about, you know, to nourish, trust, openness, empowering, Using being a temp as an opportunity to learn culture. What a great way to look at it and influence culture through purpose. I respect what’s solid and build on what could be better. Yeah, there’s so much richness there of what you say that I hope everybody here does take away and really thinks about and really takes on board as well. There are actually a few more comments,you know, urging, people to join WIN and use the mentoring program there is really rewarding. Yeah, there’s also some good feedback about the offers for, nuclear regulations saying they’re really good to work with now. So, yeah, some good feedback there as well. So, I think what, my big takeaway here is to go and care and dare. Yeah, and, live with that, you know, with, and, Headtorch as well. So, thank you. We really appreciate it. It’s been wonderful having you on the Wellbeing Hour. Thank you very much. Adrienne: A pleasure. Good luck, everyone. Angus: Thank you. So, coming up on the Wellbeing Hour. The next Wellbeing Hour is with Andrew Rogers. He is a consultant in the Leadership Advisory Practice of Odgers Berndston, he was also a Global Director of Sustainability and Wellbeing at HSBC, an enormous global bank and, he’s going to be really interesting as well. He’s going to be talking about Be Courageous, Discover Your Identity. So join us for that, that’s on 19th September at 12 noon. We are taking August off, so that date is 19th September at 12 noon. Other dates for your diary coming up. We have on 26th September, we have a webinar, which is Business Critical, Workplace Mental Health and Career Development. That is with Amy and Jane Barrett of The Career Farm, so keep an eye out for that, we will be sending out the link. On 16th October, we have another panel event. We ran this earlier in the year and we’re doing another one. so this one is the voice of Gen Z. Workplace Mental Health. So we’re going to be having a panel of young people on the Wellbeing Hour and I think they will give us a completely different view on mental health and the workplace. Amy and myself are speaking at the Scottish Manufacturing and Supply Chain Conference at the SECC in Glasgow, so come along, come and see us. Listen to us speak, come and talk to us. We’d love to listen to you. so it’d be great to see you there. Please stay in touch. Follow us on LinkedIn and Spotify. It does make a big difference. And we do post all these events on there. There’s the offer of a free consultation if you like on that QR code there, and find out more about what we have and tailored solutions for senior leaders, people managers, and direct and indirect staff, or feel free to give me a call or email me on that number there. That’s it from the Wellbeing Hour. It is always an honour and a great pleasure to run these. We look forward to seeing you all again and thank you very much. Have great days. Amy: Bye, everyone. Thank you.